Do the Left and Right share any common values?

myp · Dec 26, 2012

Would you rather know the truth or a false, but comforting reality? That is the question.

Sorry, but the real world is complex. I find it quite egotistical to just assume that everything is simple, especially when the facts don't agree. Don't you? The truth is the truth. Nature is the way she is. If the truth is complex, it is complex. You or I did not design the universe- that is just the way it is.

And you can call those people a "bane" to society, but remember that without them you probably would not have electricity, the Internet, healthcare that has advanced humanity to the point where the average person can live more than twice what he used to, industry, automation, and on and on. You can look down on those people, but you sure don't seem to have a problem reaping the benefits of the fruits of their labor.

bluefig · Dec 26, 2012

I don't think etymology, semantics, linguistics and theoretical lexicography have added much value to my life. And, I certainly think linguistics has corrupted the study of philosophy and epistimology and politics, so I can say what I want about those academic fields of study being dangerous and a bane to society.

I didn't say everything was simple. You can spend your life studying the complexity of language if it suits you. I said, I don't generally like people who do. I will spend my life in search of simplicity, a much harder way to go, actually, as it goes against the cultural grain of the moment. Complexity and unknowingness is IN and simplicity and concrete facts are OUT. That is why I respect the people who use their brains and words to simplify complex issues.

Furthermore, politics is pretty simple, it is not brain surgery. Here in the US it is very simple: there are really only a few ways of approaching it, only and hand-full of parties and discovering a persons approach can be very enlightening.

You can call me egotistical if you like, I can take a personal insult or two, although I think it is an evasive maneuver and a bit of a low blow the way you are using it. I am, in fact, a fan of ego, of selfhood, of individuality over collectivism, of being one's own person.

myp · Dec 26, 2012

It isn't simple. The facts show it isn't simple. To suggest otherwise is deluding yourself and you already admit you do that because you don't approach this issue with a fact-based goal, but a comfort-based one. It is a terrible tragedy in my opinion.

To suggest that word meanings are not arguable and changing makes no sense. You have one definition. I have another. Who is right? How would you decide that? (and before you say go to the dictionary, let's assume we are both lexicographers)

myp · Dec 26, 2012

All that aside, what is simple? Simple to you may not be simple to me. So I don't understand the use of that word to begin with. Simple to a human is probably complex to an ant. Simple to a rocket scientist is probably complex to a mentally disabled person. What defines simple, anyway? It is a relative term.

tecoyah · Dec 26, 2012

bluefig said:
....snip....I will spend my life in search of simplicity, a much harder way to go, actually, as it goes against the cultural grain of the moment. Complexity and unknowingness is IN and simplicity and concrete facts are OUT. That is why I respect the people who use their brains and words to simplify complex issues.

Is it not a complex process to create the simplicity you respect?

Sure as hell is for me. (we call this evaluation, by the way)

Likely, everyone agrees a simple equation is easier, and more pleasant. Thing is, from what I can see.....life is not so simple until you think it through.

bluefig · Dec 26, 2012

Yes, it is complex initially, when encountering a new idea. But, there aren't many new ideas. Yes, thinking it through is difficult but only needs to be done periodically as new ideas arise or one notices an error in ones thinking. You will notice I never said simplicity is easy. In simple topics such as politics it is not hard at all once one has identified the major forces/ideas at play.

Who is the "we" you mention, Tecoyah? Creating simplicity from complexity is called evaluation?

tecoyah · Dec 26, 2012

bluefig said:
Yes, it is complex initially, when encountering a new idea. But, there aren't many new ideas. Yes, thinking it through is difficult but only needs to be done periodically as new ideas arise or one notices an error in ones thinking. You will notice I never said simplicity is easy. In simple topics such as politics it is not hard at all once one has identified the major forces/ideas at play.

Who is the "we" you mention, Tecoyah? Creating simplicity from complexity is called evaluation?

Okay, starts out complex, leading to simplicity....due to evaluation (which leads to understanding). There are many "New" ideas every day, a new situation every second. I never said it was difficult to evaluate, actually quite entertaining...as it never ends (we call that life).

I used the term "WE" in the context most people do...you might evaluate that complex statement.

bluefig · Dec 26, 2012

I just call it thinking, but you are free to call it evaluation.

RE: "WE" - (ha, ha, loved typing that.) I don't use the royal we, and rarely encounter it in conversation. I thought you meant a particular group of people, perhaps in your trade or profession. Didn't mean to offend.

Gotta' sign off for now, see everyone later! And, I hope some other forum members can think of common values shared by the political right and the left. I'm sure there are more than just: love of their children and shared political corruption.

tecoyah · Dec 26, 2012

bluefig said:
I just call it thinking, but you are free to call it evaluation.

RE: "WE" - (ha, ha, loved typing that.) I don't use the royal we, and rarely encounter it in conversation. I thought you meant a particular group of people, perhaps in your trade or profession. Didn't mean to offend.

Gotta' sign off for now, see everyone later! And, I hope some other forum members can think of common values shared by the political right and the left. I'm sure there are more than just: love of their children and shared political corruption.

I never intend to offend, please understand that.

This place is meant to be a fun experiment in debate.

Mermaid · Dec 27, 2012

l believe in social democracy and dont like any individualist ideology.

l hate bigotism ,despotism ,extreme capitalism ,radicalism etc..

l believe in peace which we can achieve through a real democracy.

bluefig · Dec 27, 2012

Mermaid said:
l believe in social democracy and dont like any individualist ideology.

You don't like any individualist ideology? Okay, so you are a collectivist and believe the individual belongs to the state or society. I hope you know that the history of democracy is bloody and tyrannical. The US is the only country based on individual rights and so I hope we can avoid decaying into democracy: democracy being a form of mob rule in which the majority dictates the life and death of the minority. Democracy is anything but peaceful: see the current results of the democratic Muslim Spring for proof. Women, gays and Christians are being slaughtered by the mob. That democratic experiment does not bother you?

tecoyah · Dec 27, 2012

bluefig said:
You don't like any individualist ideology? Okay, so you are a collectivist and believe the individual belongs to the state or society. I hope you know that the history of democracy is bloody and tyrannical. The US is the only country based on individual rights and so I hope we can avoid decaying into democracy: democracy being a form of mob rule in which the majority dictates the life and death of the minority. Democracy is anything but peaceful: see the current results of the democratic Muslim Spring for proof. Women, gays and Christians are being slaughtered by the mob. That democratic experiment does not bother you?

Quite an extrapolation from a statement of basic belief....impressive imagination. Do you see the American Civil War as something to regret (other than the fact it was War)? Our Republic has evolved into a form of democracy over time, as will others in Africa, the middle east, Asia....etc. Granted, others will base new democracies on our little "Experiment".

The term Democracy...to me at least, encompasses far too many aspects of Society and Government to be explained in a paragraph or even a book. Ours is unique, and so will be every other...but it is a messy childhood for all of them.

Mermaid · Dec 27, 2012

bluefig said:
You don't like any individualist ideology? Okay, so you are a collectivist and believe the individual belongs to the state or society. I hope you know that the history of democracy is bloody and tyrannical. The US is the only country based on individual rights and so I hope we can avoid decaying into democracy: democracy being a form of mob rule in which the majority dictates the life and death of the minority. Democracy is anything but peaceful: see the current results of the democratic Muslim Spring for proof. Women, gays and Christians are being slaughtered by the mob. That democratic experiment does not bother you?

what is happening in the middle east now is a sunni islamist winter ,not democratic spring.yes l know and appreciate that america differs from the rest of the world in having a different understanding of freedom .but l dont think we can have a real democracy as long as this world is ruled by the global firms that control the goverments

bluefig · Dec 27, 2012

tecoyah said:
Quite an extrapolation from a statement of basic belief....impressive imagination. Do you see the American Civil War as something to regret (other than the fact it was War)? Our Republic has evolved into a form of democracy over time, as will others in Africa, the middle east, Asia....etc. Granted, others will base new democracies on our little "Experiment".

The term Democracy...to me at least, encompasses far too many aspects of Society and Government to be explained in a paragraph or even a book. Ours is unique, and so will be every other...but it is a messy childhood for all of them.

Of course, you dispute the meaning of the word democracy. I believe you are with the words have no meaning crowd or by this comment you may be with the words have so much meaning that we cannot discuss them unless we write an entire book crowd. Either way, it does not add much to the discussion except to stifle debate. I say the world democracy does have a meaning and it does not describe the Republic we have, except in the minds of those who would change it into the collectivist dream of a democracy in which the majority votes to give itself and it's allies all that productive minority of individuals produce. Socrates would argue that democracy has a real meaning and that it is deadly to the minorities who decent. It is my hope that we can avoid it here.

To answer your question, I think the Civil War was a good thing, that corrected a major flaw in our foundation: the issue of slavery. The only thing we now must correct is to codify private property in a lawful and specific way.

bluefig · Dec 27, 2012

Mermaid said:
what is happening in the middle east now is a sunni islamist winter ,not democratic spring.yes l know and appreciate that america differs from the rest of the world in having a different understanding of freedom .but l dont think we can have a real democracy as long as this world is ruled by the global firms that control the goverments

The ruling parties, be they associated with Shia or Sunni were democratically elected - that is what we supported: Democratic elections. Hitler was also Democratically elected.

The word democracy means majority rule. The majority of a nation has no more right to kill others or steal from others than any individual does and democracy is a tool used by tyrannical leaders to buy votes or assert dominance of a party or religion over the minority. The sheeple, trained in Progressive ideals in government run schools and emboldened by a media that promotes the word endlessly, have eaten it up as the be-all of freedom when in fact it is a treacherous type of rule.

tecoyah · Dec 27, 2012

bluefig said:
Of course, you dispute the meaning of the word democracy. I believe you are with the words have no meaning crowd or by this comment you may be with the words have so much meaning that we cannot discuss them unless we write an entire book crowd. Either way, it does not add much to the discussion except to stifle debate. I say the world democracy does have a meaning and it does not describe the Republic we have, except in the minds of those who would change it into the collectivist dream of a democracy in which the majority votes to give itself and it's allies all that productive minority of individuals produce. Socrates would argue that democracy has a real meaning and that it is deadly to the minorities who decent. It is my hope that we can avoid it here.

To answer your question, I think the Civil War was a good thing, that corrected a major flaw in our foundation: the issue of slavery. The only thing we now must correct is to codify private property in a lawful and specific way.

Fortunately....you are free to believe whatever you wish, incorrect or not. You are also free to claim you know what I think...it is a free country...pretty cool isn't it.

You can even claim to know what a man dead for a very long time thinks, and I am free to dismiss everything you say as unimportant, uninformed, and opinionated hyperbole.

Mermaid · Dec 27, 2012

bluefig said:
The ruling parties, be they associated with Shia or Sunni were democratically elected - that is what we supported: Democratic elections. Hitler was also Democratically elected.

The word democracy means majority rule. The majority of a nation has no more right to kill others or steal from others than any individual does and democracy is a tool used by tyrannical leaders to buy votes or assert dominance of a party or religion over the minority. The sheeple, trained in Progressive ideals in government run schools and emboldened by a media that promotes the word endlessly, have eaten it up as the be-all of freedom when in fact it is a treacherous type of rule.

elections are just the mask of this democratic game.the ones being elected are usually the same ,the ones voting them are still the same. what a nice play.

bluefig · Dec 28, 2012

tecoyah said:
Fortunately....you are free to believe whatever you wish, incorrect or not. You are also free to claim you know what I think...it is a free country...pretty cool isn't it.

You can even claim to know what a man dead for a very long time thinks, and I am free to dismiss everything you say as unimportant, uninformed, and opinionated hyperbole.

Dismissive and non-responsive, how disappointing. Why not clarify your meaning instead? It must be that communication is not your goal. Do you really believe the term Democracy is so complex that it cannot be defined without writing an essay or book?

myp · Dec 28, 2012

bluefig said:
Do you really believe the term Democracy is so complex that it cannot be defined without writing an essay or book?

People have written hundreds of books and essays on it... so yea.

Just like Communism became popularized after the Communist Manifesto- another book.

Sorry, but the world isn't as simple as you make it out to be. You seem to like living in a false reality- that is your choice, but that is not what makes the world turn or mankind progress and those doing the progressing and calculating the turn of the world know that.

bluefig · Dec 30, 2012

Yes, and whole cookbooks are written about salad making but that does not mean we cannot agree on what a salad is without writing a book. But, okay, I understand your view is that everything is too complex for discussion and any attempt at communication is a "false-reality." I get it, you don't have any ideas about commonalities across the political spectrum nor do you believe the that the spectrum can even be described. Please stop saying the same thing over and over again. Maybe someone else will have a comment. Or, are you just trying to fight with me? If so, I will stop commenting on my thread.

Do the Left and Right share any common values?

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