Chris,
et al,
Yes, it is complicated trying to determine the "pretense" and separating it from the actual "intent."
My response to this is as follows. The founders found this country on religious pretenses yes or no? My answer is yes they mentioned God in the Declaration Of Independence.
Of the Founders that took part in the adoption of the Constitution on a few were deists. A large majority had religious backgrounds.
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The Constitution is written in broad brush strokes. But the intent of the founders is not as obvious as the directions and limitations cited in
The Constitution. One of the founders, President John Adams, once signed this.
Article 11 said:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
The Constitution only state that the Federal Government will not adopt a religious backing. No where in the Constitutions does it say states can not have a religious backing. As a Matter of fact if you look at some of the Original states several have a religion set as a State religion.
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Having the support (backing) of a religious sect, is not the same thing. I again, ask: What religion would you teach in schools? How would you test it? Would you withhold a diploma from someone who did not participate?
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
Again separation of Church and state is not mentioned in the Constitution other then to tell us that the Federal Government will not take a religion. This was set because of their view of the Church of England.
I reiterate again the only mention of the separation of Church and state is in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Dansbury Baptist's. That is the only mention of that phrase it was never incorporated into the original Constitution.
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This is correct. Other than the "religious test" clause, there is absolutely no mention of religion, God or church.
Now to answer your question I don't believe the Fed should have any Department of Education. I believe the Fed should not be giving money to Education this is the state's job and not the Fed's job. I believe if such a decision about incorporating religion into the education should be vote on by the state and its citizens.
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And under what criteria would they decide?
Let's not mix the debate over the Department of Education, with this issue. The idea behind the "separation" of religious curriculum from public school funding
(whatever geopolitical subdivision level) has been around before the department was formed in 1980.
There are a number authors that I like and a number of quotes on the subject, but none more compelling then those of James Madison, a founder and President of the United States and the principle author of the Federalist Papers which explained
The Constitution to the American People.
James Madison in a letter to Livingston said:
An alliance or coalition between Government and religion cannot be too carefully guarded against......Every new and successful example therefore of a PERFECT SEPARATION between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance........religion and government will exist in greater purity, without (rather) than with the aid of government.
SOURCE:
http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_JMadison.htm
How would you choose the religion I don't think you should have to chose you should incorporate into a history Class more or less. You should give an overview of why people believe in God from Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Kids should be taught why they believe and the history behind the each religion including the wars.
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Ah, a compilation (Survey Course)! Yes, that is possible. That is possible. I think I suggested that as a possibility.
Though I myself am Christian I don't think a strictly one religion should be taught. Though I believe it is up to the state and its people to allow any such teachings to be taught.
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Again, this is a states rights issue. I believe that is a different matter. I would like to see that argued before SCOTUS.
My question to you is it is fair to teach children Darwinism yet not to teach them the history of religion and its beliefs?
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Different question and different argument.
This is the difference between a science course
(knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method) and that of theology
(the study of the nature of a Supreme Being and religious belief).
No science, that I am aware of, argues against the existence of a Supreme Being or Intelligent Designer; not even Darwinism. Remember, many of the prominent scientists of old where clerics
(José de Acosta, Bernardino Baldi, Henri Breuil, Christopher Clavius, Johann Georg Hagen, Juan Ignacio Molina, William of Ockham, Jean Picard, Niccolò Zucchi) In fact, it is the other way around. Many lay preachers, fundamentalist, and religious zealots oppose science and fear it may expose something counter to their belief
(the effect of the VMAT-2 gene).
Most Respectfully,
R
