God doesn't makes sense

obtuseobserver · Oct 2, 2010

"want to know how to make God laugh? Tell him your plans"

I actually got into a discussion once with a guy on the differences between Judaism and Christianity (other than the obvious bit about Jesus) and I started one paragraph by saying, "Christians made a new deal with God..."

He replied aghast that people do not cut deals with God.

I posted the definitions of covenant and testament

AK_ID · Oct 2, 2010

There was plenty of deal-cutting in the OT. Perhaps God appreciates a bit of sauciness.

obtuseobserver · Oct 2, 2010

He certainly has a sense of humor I suspect there's little reason he doesn't enjoy the sauciness too

AK_ID · Oct 2, 2010

And speaking of sauciness (and to clarify matters for the Wii kids watching this discussion from the wings), Christians really did allow God to write a unilateral contract, while my forebears had the audacity to bargain. And look where it got us. Forty centuries later, and we're still stuck with a patch of ground nobody should want, but everybody wants anyway. We're stuck with a religion that promises no afterlife, and the other, newer religions want to build theirs on ours. The primary mark of being a Jew consists of chopping off half our kielbasa at a young age, while the rest of y'all just sprinkle holy water and call it good. We do produce some awesome young women, though, and tough ones.

obtuseobserver · Oct 2, 2010

lol - afterlife.... it is a great deal more complicated than that and you know it

the popular Christian notions (mostly of Hell) have really colored current perceptions (Milton and Dante primarily)

Christians for the most part believe in a corporeal after life (reunited with the flesh) but who can know.

RAMBAM and RAMBAN speak to an afterlife though the form is uncertain. RAMBAM supports the non-corporeal notion of a soul. RAMBAN suggest being reunited with the flesh and transcedence into non-corporeal soul.

The general theme for Jews and Christians though is the desire of the soul to reunite with the creator (without regard to form). Thus hell can be thought of as being remote from origin/creator/God.

St. Augustine relied heavily on Plotinus in his formulation of the cosmos. It is in essence a philosophical Big Bang.

God is origin/creator. Think of the light in the darkness. As creator God is a singularity defying description as this would create parts and therefore not "one."

Souls are of the creator, with the creator at creation. (John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.) But John used the word (latinized) logos. It does not mean "word" but something more like knowledge or wisdom. In the context divine wisdom is probably close. God then is that universal intelligence underlying all of creation. It is like animism in an absolute form. It is in and of everything.

Souls then are of that great welling up into creation. As they originate from the One when they leave the material world they seek to reunify w/origin creator God.

there's a general nutshell if you buy into that stuff

AK_ID · Oct 5, 2010

Yeah, I know it's more complex than I stated, Your Honored Barristership, but when in Rome. Also, when discussing important matters with Girl Scouts, talk cookies. We're in the land of buttons and badges here, Dude. Simplify.

connermt · Nov 4, 2010

AK_ID said:
May I simplify things a bit? No, I don't suppose God makes sense (and God not making sense to humans is a basic tenet of my people's belief system). But do YOU make sense to your dog or cat? Do you expect your pets to understand why you leave them home alone every day, or why they eat kibble while you eat prime rib? Would they understand if you explained it to them? Doubtful. Extrapolate, kids.

Dogs and cats probably make more sense of us that we do of an invisible, all powerful being that always was, is and will be (even though so many christians like to point out that's impossible - nothing can exist from nothing).
The point is, the concept of any god is expected, but the actions of a perfect being (as outlined in the bible) is beyond what's expected by god (as defined by christians).
Which is why, while a god may exists, the christian god exists only in the minds of those who constructed it and wish to continue with its longevity.

obtuseobserver · Nov 4, 2010

Nothing can exist from nothing is a refence to the physical universe not a diety.

Could you refer me to that biblical outline? I'd like to read it.

Christians didn't create God. Even if we accept your premise that God is a human construct Christians merely adopted the God of the Jews. So, I guess you meant to say they conjured God.

Dogs and Cats... you're certainly correct but that was an anology. The point is that God is God and he doesn't owe you dick. That you don't understand is your problem... not his. FTR, it is everyone's "problem." No one can know the mind of God. The difference is that you're positing this as a deal breaker. If God doesn't make sense to connermt then God does not exist.

Using that logic anything you don't understand does not exist. So... huge swaths of reality must just go "pooof" and disappear in puff of logic huh?

connermt · Nov 4, 2010

obtuseobserver said:
Nothing can exist from nothing is a refence to the physical universe not a diety.

When it's said "Nothing can exist from nothing." there is no reference stated. Meant? Maybe. Stated? No.
I believe people created every god that existed, including your invisible dead one (if you don't, that's fine with me). Your dead god is no different than any other god created, with the exception that you believe in it.
God is god and owes us nothing, yet needs out worship. That's a pitiful excuse for any deity.
Using that type of language

dick

only cheapens your poor, baseless argument further. That's something you need to work on if you expect your points to be seen as worthwhile.
If god makes sense to you, then IMO you have no sense of logic and understanding of simple humanity, its history nor what it's capable of. And again, that's fine.

obtuseobserver · Nov 4, 2010

connermt said:
When it's said "Nothing can exist from nothing." there is no reference stated. Meant? Maybe. Stated? No.

Well then clarify. Did you mean God cannot come from nothing? I feel like you are demanding some one pass you a note with little "yes" and "no" boxes.

For my part, when I say nothing can come from nothing I mean the physical universe; not God.

What do you mean when you say it?

connermt said:
I believe people created every god that existed, including your invisible dead one (if you don't, that's fine with me). Your dead god is no different than any other god created, with the exception that you believe in it.
God is god and owes us nothing, yet needs out worship. That's a pitiful excuse for any deity.
Using that type of language only cheapens your poor, baseless argument further.

A fairly accurate description even if you were offended by such vulgarity.

connermt said:
That's something you need to work on if you expect your points to be seen as worthwhile.
If god makes sense to you, then IMO you have no sense of logic and understanding of simple humanity, its history nor what it's capable of. And again, that's fine.

lol

connermt's argument boiled down to essential parts...

If you do not agree with me you are not logical, have no understanding of humanity, history or its capabilities.

you're a peach... dumb as a post but a peach

connermt · Nov 6, 2010

obtuseobserver said:
Well then clarify. Did you mean God cannot come from nothing? I feel like you are demanding some one pass you a note with little "yes" and "no" boxes.

Clarify what? Many christians say something can't be created from nothing. That includes god. Very simple.
When we put caveats on statements (everything except god) the claim looses all substance and is invalid on the whole.

A fairly accurate description even if you were offended by such vulgarity.

I'm not offended. Using the word 'dick' shows your immaturity. That fact that you say it's an accurate statement shows your ignorance.

you're a peach... dumb as a post but a peach

You think highly of yourself if you believe I care what you think of me. But if it makes you feel good about yourself (after, that's what christianity is all about - feeling good about oneself and getting to heaven) by thinking you;re insulting another, by all means, continue to "think" what you want.
It doesn't change the fact that your god is dead to the world and only lives if the mind of its believers.
Happy posting.

myp · Nov 6, 2010

How about everyone just stops with the name-calling and the superiority complexes? Are we 5 years old?

Nothing can be proved 100% one way or another- all we know is that we exist. Just accept it and respect each other. Debating is fine, but there is no need to act like children- if you have something to say, refute the idea, not the person.

obtuseobserver · Nov 6, 2010

connermt said:
Clarify what? Many christians say something can't be created from nothing. That includes god. Very simple.

You've ignored the direct question: What do YOU mean when you say it?

connermt said:
When we put caveats on statements (everything except god) the claim looses all substance and is invalid on the whole.

Actually, the converse is true. You are implying, intentionally or not, that there was something before God. That is that God is part of creation rather than creator. If so then God is not God using Anselm's definition which, afaik, is a fairly universally accepted definition amongst Abrahamic Monotheists. Anselm said God is that thing no greater than which may be conceived. A God as created is less than thta which created God; ergo, not God.

So, rather rather than lose substance the exception is quite specifically the thing that sets God apart as God.

connermt said:
I'm not offended. Using the word 'dick' shows your immaturity. That fact that you say it's an accurate statement shows your ignorance.

Lol. At least I can do it with a word while you take up entire posts to demonstrate it.

connermt said:
You think highly of yourself if you believe I care what you think of me. But if it makes you feel good about yourself (after, that's what christianity is all about - feeling good about oneself and getting to heaven) by thinking you;re insulting another, by all means, continue to "think" what you want.
It doesn't change the fact that your god is dead to the world and only lives if the mind of its believers.
Happy posting.

lol

ok... here on out, just directly addressing your comments. You please do the same and we'll play nice. Deal?

obtuseobserver · Nov 6, 2010

myp said:
How about everyone just stops with the name-calling and the superiority complexes? Are we 5 years old?

Oh, I'm much much older than that

myp said:
Nothing can be proved 100% one way or another- all we know is that we exist.

Do we?

God cannot ever be proven. A demand of proof is the absence of faith.

My favorite comment on the issue: We cannot know until we do. And then its a bit late to matter.

myp · Nov 6, 2010

obtuseobserver said:
Do we?

Each person knows only that they exist because they are thinking. Descartes.

obtuseobserver said:
God cannot ever be proven. A demand of proof is the absence of faith.

Exactly, which is why neither side should condescend the other for believing or not believing. One side has faith God exists, one doesn't. Whether or not God exists we don't know and probably won't ever know.

David · Nov 6, 2010

myp said:
Each person knows only that they exist because they are thinking. Descartes.

Exactly, which is why neither side should condescend the other for believing or not believing. One side has faith God exists, one doesn't. Whether or not God exists we don't know and probably won't ever know.

Until we die at which point we ether pass into oblivion or find ourselves getting judged.

myp · Nov 6, 2010

David said:
Until we die at which point we ether pass into oblivion or find ourselves getting judged.

Lol- good point- in one scenario though we might not even know we died...

David · Nov 6, 2010

myp said:
Lol- good point- in one scenario though we might not even know we died...

In which case you pass into oblivion. A god may indeed exist but not the Abrahamic personal god that this topic is about.

On that point, what's your opinion on other deities? I always did find it odd that we're commanded to worship only it, not because it's the only deity but because it's greedy. Then there's Jesus' reference to Hades (he was talking about Hell at the time, I don't remember the exact reference) and the fact Jesus is a major figurer in non-Abrahamic religions/philosophies (Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.) which would explain why he disappeared from the historical record for most of his life, odd considering he was supposed to be a devout Jew (and thus a Monotheist).

obtuseobserver · Nov 6, 2010

myp said:
Each person knows only that they exist because they are thinking. Descartes.

It isn't the thinking... its the thinker. Cogito ergo sum... "I think"

there's a very interesting notion that flows directly from this called solipsism... (could well be that Descartes comment flowed from thinking about solipsism...) It tends to get into intellectual masturbation but if one can resist the temptation to get pretentious and self-important when considering the notion it has some cool points to ponder

myp said:
Exactly, which is why neither side should condescend the other for believing or not believing. One side has faith God exists, one doesn't. Whether or not God exists we don't know and probably won't ever know.

You'll need to look high and low and you'll still come up empty if you look for comments from me that mock some one for not believing.

I'll mock justifications for not believing but not the choice. To me there is a huge difference. Believe or don't. If you offer a "why" and I can illustrate that the "why" is silly does that compel belief? No, because then it isn't a choice. It is compelled by virtue of having the negating argument dispelled. So, believe or don't. It is a choice. I do not believe either makes one a fool. I believe some of the bases for either certainly can. You'll never see me argue "why" I believe. As I noted, for me I simply acknowledge what I believe to be true. God exists. For others the opposite conclusion will be self apparent. Why? I don't care.

myp · Nov 6, 2010

obtuseobserver said:
It isn't the thinking... its the thinker. Cogito ergo sum... "I think"

Yes, I am familiar with the idea. I got sloppy and didn't do justice to it in my description.

obtuseobserver said:
I'll mock justifications for not believing but not the choice. To me there is a huge difference. Believe or don't. If you offer a "why" and I can illustrate that the "why" is silly does that compel belief? No, because then it isn't a choice. It is compelled by virtue of having the negating argument dispelled. So, believe or don't. It is a choice. I do not believe either makes one a fool. I believe some of the bases for either certainly can. You'll never see me argue "why" I believe. As I noted, for me I simply acknowledge what I believe to be true. God exists. For others the opposite conclusion will be self apparent. Why? I don't care.

Fair enough, but even if they offer reasons, why do you care? In reality reasons on both sides can't prove anything, but this is a debate forum after all and that is what it is all about- trying to argue for your beliefs.

God doesn't makes sense

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