Great ape bill to stop invasive research on Great apes

myp · Dec 9, 2012

How does everyone here feel about this bill to stop invasive research on Great apes?

http://blogs.nature.com/news/2012/12/great-ape-bill-in-us-senate-showdown.html

tecoyah · Dec 9, 2012

I agree with it...100%

myp · Dec 9, 2012

I am not sure I do. A lot of important neurophys research has been done with chimps. Furthermore, how far does this go? What stops this from going forward to being applied to all mammals, etc.? And why single out one group like this?

tecoyah · Dec 9, 2012

Personally, I see the great apes (and cetaceans) at a level above other members of the animal kingdom due to brain conditions. I see it as quite possible these animals have an awareness approaching our own and thus should be considered as sentient beings.
Because of my beliefs I see a moral imperative to consider the implications of possible torture inflicted upon these creatures. I understand the trade-off we accept to further Human health and prosperity, but do not see this trade-off as worth the possibility of inflicting such damage on something that "Knows"...even if in a way we do not understand.

David · Dec 9, 2012

myp said:
I am not sure I do. A lot of important neurophys research has been done with chimps. Furthermore, how far does this go? What stops this from going forward to being applied to all mammals, etc.? And why single out one group like this?

Well let me put it this way, we're Great Apes.

Experimenting on sapient life without consent isn't something I can get behind.

myp · Dec 9, 2012

David said:
Well let me put it this way, we're Great Apes.

I knew that was going to come up. We're also mammals, animals, and life too

myp · Dec 9, 2012

tecoyah said:
Personally, I see the great apes (and cetaceans) at a level above other members of the animal kingdom due to brain conditions. I see it as quite possible these animals have an awareness approaching our own and thus should be considered as sentient beings.
Because of my beliefs I see a moral imperative to consider the implications of possible torture inflicted upon these creatures. I understand the trade-off we accept to further Human health and prosperity, but do not see this trade-off as worth the possibility of inflicting such damage on something that "Knows"...even if in a way we do not understand.

It becomes an animal rights issue and as all rights issues it is subjective. The slippery slope is the scarier part. Also, I think that if your argument is to be made, then how can you justify eating (not merely experimenting, but eating) cows, pigs, etc?

tecoyah · Dec 9, 2012

myp said:
It becomes an animal rights issue and as all rights issues it is subjective. The slippery slope is the scarier part. Also, I think that if your argument is to be made, then how can you justify eating (not merely experimenting, but eating) cows, pigs, etc?

I do not see livestock as sentient at the level of the great apes. I also understand a difference between killing for sustenance, and possibly torturing for research.
I applauded the no dolphin tuna movement as it came about for much the same reasoning. I have come to understand there is a direct link between the complexity of the brain and the level of thought and sentient ability. If it can be avoided, I would prefer we err on the side of caution where these more advanced creatures are involved, as it may be a very cruel thing to do.

This is an emotional reaction based on scientific understanding...perhaps nothing but opinion. But, it is mine.

Cerise · Dec 9, 2012

UK stopped testing over 20 years ago because of the cognitive and behavioural similarities between us and them. That was the right thing to do.

myp · Dec 9, 2012

tecoyah said:
This is an emotional reaction based on scientific understanding...perhaps nothing but opinion. But, it is mine.

Yea I don't know where I actually fall on this issue, but I expected this general response so I've just been playing devil's advocate sort of.

tecoyah · Dec 9, 2012

Par for the course....and wicked fun

myp · Dec 9, 2012

tecoyah said:
Par for the course....and wicked fun

I will admit though that I think this is a harder issue for me because my undergrad major was in neurophys and I've learned about a lot of famous studies including chimp studies and what they have meant for our understanding of the brain and nervous systems.

tecoyah · Dec 9, 2012

I wonder....what it meant to the Chimps?

myp · Dec 9, 2012

tecoyah said:
I wonder....what it meant to the Chimps?

I wonder what breeding cows in close confinement and miserable conditions and then butchering them and eating them meant to the cows

tecoyah · Dec 9, 2012

myp said:
I wonder what breeding cows in close confinement and miserable conditions and then butchering them and eating them meant to the cows

It is unlikely it means much of anything, as the cognitive ability has been shown quite limited. This is not the case in a simian species due to the larger and more developed brain.
As I have stated, I see a difference between slaughtering an animal for food, and experimenting on one for knowledge. I also understand a very profound difference between an animal with low brain function, and one with a brain very similar to our own.

David · Dec 9, 2012

tecoyah said:
I do not see livestock as sentient at the level of the great apes. I also understand a difference between killing for sustenance, and possibly torturing for research.
I applauded the no dolphin tuna movement as it came about for much the same reasoning. I have come to understand there is a direct link between the complexity of the brain and the level of thought and sentient ability. If it can be avoided, I would prefer we err on the side of caution where these more advanced creatures are involved, as it may be a very cruel thing to do.

This is an emotional reaction based on scientific understanding...perhaps nothing but opinion. But, it is mine.

I think you're confusing sentence (awareness) with sapience (self-awareness) Most of the animals we eat and keep as pets/slaves are sentient (cows, dogs, horses), vary few are sapient and even fewer are at our level, you could probably count the number of such species on your hands (bottle nose dolphins topping the list IMO).

clax · Dec 9, 2012

I have read through this and I think I am more torn on it than to begin with. I am real conservationist. I value our palmer and its life forms. Both sides have such compelling arguments. On the R&D side of things we have a great potential to find and discover new treatments that end once thought to be incurable conditions. On the other side, great apes are or evolutionary cousins, we know they harbor intelligence, we have communicated with them. They are so close to actually being a intelligent species, I just can't see them being locked up in a cage and used, I wouldn't want to be.

So it is an ethical mess to me, such a fine line.

I don't care much for the slippery slope argument, because some may say a chimp is the same as a rat or a worm, but until that argument exists inn reality lets not address it. Thus is about apes, not mammals or life lets cross bridges as they come, save the rat debate for the day that they try to say it is unethical in the legislature.

The slippery slope is a sorry reason to not grow. Think about it when it is used against you, it is preposterous.

myp · Dec 25, 2012

The NIH is facing financing issues with the growing number of retired chimps: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/25/s...e-in-paying-for-upkeep-of-retired-chimps.html

Great ape bill to stop invasive research on Great apes

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