Is the Stolen Valor Act Constitutional?

myp · Feb 6, 2010

The Stolen Valor Act, passed three years ago, makes lying about receiving war medals punishable by law regardless of whether or not a person profited from saying so. Currently, there are a couple of cases in which lawyers are seeking to prove that the law does not adhere to the first amendment and hence, is not Constitutional. What do you think? Should lying about getting a military medal be illegal?

Full story here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100206...DeW5faGVhZGxpbmVfbGlzdARzbGsDZmVkZXJhbGxhd2Jh

GOP · Feb 6, 2010

I think it should be, many people today seek fame by running towards it, if you've actually served your country and fought your best you're a war hero, and others shouldn't be allowed to take that from you or sneak in line.

myp · Feb 6, 2010

GOP said:
I think it should be, many people today seek fame by running towards it, if you've actually served your country and fought your best you're a war hero, and others shouldn't be allowed to take that from you or sneak in line.

While I certainly don't condone people pretending to be war heroes (in fact, it is just sad that they would do that), I am not sure if it is government's place to step in here, unless some sort of fraud is being committed out of it. If the lier isn't making money, manipulating people etc. off it, I don't think the government can step in and say no.

Nemo · Feb 6, 2010

Valor? One either has it or not - no one can give it to you, much less steal it from anyone else. Rather it is honor that is stolen. Personal honor is highly prized. Many have sought honor only to find it in the cannon?s mouth; and while others pretend to honor, few possess it. Even so, to be held in public honor is a dubious distinction, for the cheers of the crowd stink of bad breath; and an honorable man should not rest assured of fame on such foul-mouthed acclaim. True honor exists without pomp and ceremonious award; and, likewise, the only real honor worth having is one?s own.

GOP · Feb 6, 2010

myp said:
While I certainly don't condone people pretending to be war heroes (in fact, it is just sad that they would do that), I am not sure if it is government's place to step in here, unless some sort of fraud is being committed out of it. If the lier isn't making money, manipulating people etc. off it, I don't think the government can step in and say no.

I think the last part of your post is exactly what will happen. People won't try to steal your personality and what you've achieved if they can't use it for anything, and I think money and manipulation are two of those things that trigger people to do this in the first place. Governments first task is to protect people, I believe this goes under that definition.

myp · Feb 6, 2010

GOP said:
I think the last part of your post is exactly what will happen. People won't try to steal your personality and what you've achieved if they can't use it for anything, and I think money and manipulation are two of those things that trigger people to do this in the first place. Governments first task is to protect people, I believe this goes under that definition.

Even so, the official stance (in my opinion) should not be against the freedom to say one is a war hero as that is just blocking harmless speech. If a law is needed, it should be against fraud, but to an extent, that legislation already exists.

GOP · Feb 6, 2010

myp said:
Even so, the official stance (in my opinion) should not be against the freedom to say one is a war hero as that is just blocking harmless speech. If a law is needed, it should be against fraud, but to an extent, that legislation already exists.

I can hardly see how people would say they are war heroes (when they're not) if they don't have an agenda. But I agree with much of your post that fraud is punishable so most of the consequences around claiming you are a war hero today are already covered by the current laws.

myp · Feb 6, 2010

Nemo said:
Valor? One either has it or not - no one can give it to you, much less steal it from anyone else. Rather it is honor that is stolen. Personal honor is highly prized. Many have sought honor only to find it in the cannon’s mouth; and while others pretend to honor, few possess it. Even so, to be held in public honor is a dubious distinction, for the cheers of the crowd stink of bad breath; and an honorable man should not rest assured of fame on such foul-mouthed acclaim. True honor exists without pomp and ceremonious award; and, likewise, the only real honor worth having is one’s own.

So I am assuming you are against war medals and such? Either way, people will always look up to certain people and lying about one's merits and with that committing fraud does warrant government action in my opinion. Just lying about it for the sake of it- I think that is just the right of the people and I don't think government should be involved even though I personally think it is wrong.

GOP said:
I can hardly see how people would say they are war heroes (when they're not) if they don't have an agenda.

But technically is possible right? And I am sure someone has done it before- for example maybe some guy trying to impress a girl.

As a believer in small government and individual rights, I support minimizing government's role to only getting involved in select situations- namely when someone is harming another. For this reason, I think a sweeping law that covers both the moneymaking liars and the non-fraud liars, is not acceptable.

GOP · Feb 6, 2010

myp said:
..., I think a sweeping law that covers both the moneymaking liars and the non-fraud liars, is not acceptable.

This is where we disagree. To be able to punish people who are moneymaking liars, you'd sometimes have to make laws that punish people who are non-fraud liars. Lying in itself is not good, and as you also mentioned in your post there are people who are only doing it to impress others and that's creating no harm, but in some cases claiming to be someone you're not, I think, is an indirect way of stealing someones identity.

myp · Feb 6, 2010

GOP said:
but in some cases claiming to be someone you're not, I think, is an indirect way of stealing someones identity.

But this is a characteristic and merely one aspect that makes up a person- it is not the sole defining characteristic of any being and as such, it is not their complete identity and the characteristic does not belong to only one person. Following up on this I am curious as to how you would feel on banning something like claiming one is gay when they aren't or claiming one is of a certain heritage when they aren't.

GOP · Feb 6, 2010

myp said:
But this is a characteristic and merely one aspect that makes up a person- it is not the sole defining characteristic of any being and as such, it is not their complete identity and the characteristic does not belong to only one person.

I totally agree, there are different sides to any human being. But everyones has good and bad sides, and if I were to kill someone and say: "This is not the entire me, the rest of personality is not this brutal." I'd still get my punishment.

myp said:
Following up on this I am curious as to how you would feel on banning something like claiming one is gay when they aren't or claiming one is of a certain heritage when they aren't.

Good point and of course if people like to claim they are gay or of a certain heritage be my guest. What we're debating is not to just take something out of the air and claim it is yours, what we are debating is that someone has an interest in claiming you are a war hero. Now I find it very hard to believe that people would just say this for pure fun, I think if you're claiming you're a war hero you have an agenda.

deanhills · Feb 7, 2010

myp said:
The Stolen Valor Act, passed three years ago, makes lying about receiving war medals punishable by law regardless of whether or not a person profited from saying so. Currently, there are a couple of cases in which lawyers are seeking to prove that the law does not adhere to the first amendment and hence, is not Constitutional. What do you think? Should lying about getting a military medal be illegal?

Full story here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100206...DeW5faGVhZGxpbmVfbGlzdARzbGsDZmVkZXJhbGxhd2Jh

So does this then mean that if I say I have a degree in Medicine, and that is a lie, that it should not be punishable because it would not be Constitutional to be prosecuted for telling a lie about one's qualifications?

Basically then all laws that have to do with ethics and ethical behaviour would have to be scrapped?

DodgeFB · Feb 8, 2010

deanhills said:
So does this then mean that if I say I have a degree in Medicine, and that is a lie, that it should not be punishable because it would not be Constitutional to be prosecuted for telling a lie about one's qualifications?

Basically then all laws that have to do with ethics and ethical behaviour would have to be scrapped?

Now don't you go hanging around hospitals "playing doctor". You are not a "Gynecologists"!

deanhills · Feb 8, 2010

DodgeFB said:
Now don't you go hanging around hospitals "playing doctor". You are not a "Gynecologists"!

One of my worst nightmares. Going for surgery for having your tonsils out and when you wake up, you wake up with your tonsils still intact, but some of your equipment missing :cry:

Good point however, as the medical profession must be one of the worst professions for people practising as doctors without qualifications to do so. There has to be some accountability in this that matches that of someone who says they have a medal, without really having one, i.e. telling a lie. Like the medical analogy, if no one is the wiser, then the guy obviously gets away, but when he gets found out, both should be punishable by law.

Is the Stolen Valor Act Constitutional?

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