Marriage and equality.

tecoyah · Nov 15, 2012

Hammer said:
I see, you're an advocate of changing the law to eliminate age discrimination, so that men can engage in government-blessed pedophile relationships (which, unlike sodomy between adults, really is illegal now, in the first place). After you accomplish that, how about ending blood-relationship discrimination that prevents father and son from getting married.

I have no idea what you might be accustomed to, as far as discussion and debate. I do however, note that the style you have been using (placing your opinion into the mouths of others, baiting through false representation, and general attack) do not quite mesh with the tone of this debate site.

If possible, a slight adjustment would be appreciated.

David · Nov 15, 2012

=Zoomer= said:
Absolutely agree. I think I was trying to say the same thing with different wording. Government should have nothing whatsoever to do with marriage. I think it's the domain of religion (that's where it started).

Actually is started as a diplomatic tool to seal hereditary based alliances. As the custom spread, love became an issue for the Lowborn as a way of cementing their relationships. It was the Christians and Muslims that turned it into a religious issue. Marriage is a civil institution, religion is the unfortunate meddler here.

tecoyah · Nov 15, 2012

David said:
Actually is started as a diplomatic tool to seal hereditary based alliances. As the custom spread, love became an issue for the Lowborn as a way of cementing their relationships. It was the Christians and Muslims that turned it into a religious issue. Marriage is a civil institution, religion is the unfortunate meddler here.

.....+1.....

Cerise · Nov 15, 2012

Iolo said:
I mean by mature peope people who think deeply before having children and, when they've got them, put their interests first and teach them as much maturity as the young can take. I don't think that can muck up people's lives

Thats ideally what should happen. Its a sad fact though that 'mature' people can also wreck their own and others marriages whether they have children or not. eg A's daddy begins an affair with Bs mother so A B C and D's childhoods are not as ideal as they should have been whether or not the families remain together.

=Zoomer= · Nov 15, 2012

David said:
Actually is started as a diplomatic tool to seal hereditary based alliances. As the custom spread, love became an issue for the Lowborn as a way of cementing their relationships. It was the Christians and Muslims that turned it into a religious issue. Marriage is a civil institution, religion is the unfortunate meddler here.

...+1 (and thanks for the correction!

Iolo · Nov 16, 2012

Cerise said:
Thats ideally what should happen. Its a sad fact though that 'mature' people can also wreck their own and others marriages whether they have children or not. eg A's daddy begins an affair with Bs mother so A B C and D's childhoods are not as ideal as they should have been whether or not the families remain together.

Neither person is mature though, surely? They are just selfish babies as far as relationships go.

Cerise · Nov 16, 2012

Are they? Some marriages last a long time or are you only counting marriages with young children? What about that Petraeus person that made the news recently? He had an affair apparantly so does that make him immature or a selfish baby?

tecoyah · Nov 16, 2012

Iolo said:
Neither person is mature though, surely? They are just selfish babies as far as relationships go.

Human relationships are very complex, and human nature even more so. Trying to place these things in a simple matrix seems inadequate to the task of understanding.

Explaining what Maturity entails would be a good place to begin however.

Iolo · Nov 16, 2012

Cerise said:
Are they? Some marriages last a long time or are you only counting marriages with young children? What about that Petraeus person that made the news recently? He had an affair apparantly so does that make him immature or a selfish baby?

Yes, of course. And, tecoyah, maturity entails, for a start, a proper scepticism about this pretended 'self' and its desperate needs, plus a huge questioning of why, if it exists at all, it is so much more important than other such near-illusions.

tecoyah · Nov 16, 2012

Iolo said:
Yes, of course. And, tecoyah, maturity entails, for a start, a proper scepticism about this pretended 'self' and its desperate needs, plus a huge questioning of why, if it exists at all, it is so much more important than other such near-illusions.

Wonderful prose...almost confusing enough to hide the thought behind it.

Your description does not (in my opinion), deal with maturity but rather human frailty...which even the most mature endure. Attempting to obscure the answer you propose with the larger issue (human experience)...does not clarify anything.

I ask again...what do you consider maturity?

Iolo · Nov 16, 2012

tecoyah said:
Wonderful prose...almost confusing enough to hide the thought behind it.

Your description does not (in my opinion), deal with maturity but rather human frailty...which even the most mature endure. Attempting to obscure the answer you propose with the larger issue (human experience)...does not clarify anything.

I ask again...what do you consider maturity?

Since you don't understand, try Buddhist mediatation for a few years and you will develop some maturity. You might read some Gramsci while you are at it!

tecoyah · Nov 16, 2012

Iolo said:
Since you don't understand, try Buddhist mediatation for a few years and you will develop some maturity. You might read some Gramsci while you are at it!

Heh....I am a Buddhist (at heart), though my meditations no longer rely on it.
And, playing the ...I am enlightened....card falls very short of an answer to my question.

Perhaps, you might try a tactic that does not pretend you know more than your opponent, or one that drops the pretense of pretty words replacing thought.

Oh....as far as Gramsci. His perceptions and understanding hold little for me, I do not agree with communism.

Iolo · Nov 16, 2012

tecoyah said:
Heh....I am a Buddhist (at heart), though my meditations no longer rely on it.
And, playing the ...I am enlightened....card falls very short of an answer to my question.

Perhaps, you might try a tactic that does not pretend you know more than your opponent, or one that drops the pretense of pretty words replacing thought.

Oh....as far as Gramsci. His perceptions and understanding hold little for me, I do not agree with communism.

Why do you think I claim to be enlightened? I just find the notion of a coherent 'self' ludicrous. I try 'patiently to explain', but get a bit bored.

If you set up walls against understanding ('I do not believe in elephants') you will find it hard to understand anything, won't you?

tecoyah · Nov 16, 2012

Iolo said:
Why do you think I claim to be enlightened? I just find the notion of a coherent 'self' ludicrous. I try 'patiently to explain', but get a bit bored.

If you set up walls against understanding ('I do not believe in elephants') you will find it hard to understand anything, won't you?

Again, pretty words with no answer. If you truly practiced a Buddhist path, you would well understand my reference to enlightenment, and have ditched the "Coherent Self" sillyness. Your Boredom would be non-existent as well, as the thought alone would remove it.

We all have walls, as is clear on the path. Yet we are working to remove them...are we not?

Iolo · Nov 16, 2012

Why should I not understand your reference? Obviously I do.

tecoyah · Nov 16, 2012

wonderful...no need to continue

Cerise · Nov 16, 2012

I doubt anyone could be deemed mature then.

clax · Nov 16, 2012

Cerise said:
I doubt anyone could be deemed mature then.

I think that is a self bestowed tital meaning whatever people want out to mean. I think lolo ifs taking about evolution not maturity.

myp · Nov 16, 2012

clax said:
I think that is a self bestowed tital meaning whatever people want out to mean.

Wait, I thought the dictionary is the be-all, end-all on definitions

Maybe now you understand my position.

tecoyah · Nov 16, 2012

Wait...you managed to decipher that?

Marriage and equality.

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