Minimum wage.

Supposn · Jul 1, 2011

MVP, the minimum wage laws in no manner causes or supports hiring discrimination and eliminating the minimum wage would not significantly reduce hiring discrimination but it will be economically detrimental to our nation and it will be particularly more detrimental to lower income families.

I never indicated that I?m pleased by the hiring disadvantages encountered by the poor, but your remedy would make all wage earners, (and particularly the working poor) poorer. I?m not pleased by the hiring disadvantages encountered by the less educated, but your remedy will not improve our public educational systems.

I?m not pleased with racial or ethnic discrimination but eliminating the minimum wage will not significantly and probably not measurably decrease such discrimination. I?m unaware of any proposed further legislative remedy that would significantly decrease such discrimination.

You don?t suggest eliminating our food and drug laws to eliminate hiring discrimination. Why do you suggest eliminating the minimum wage as a remedy? None of those laws and regulations cause or support hiring discrimination.

You?re blaming the minimum wage laws for our failing educational, taxing, global trade, border security, contracted foreign labor and public assistance policies.

Respectfully, Supposn

myp · Jul 1, 2011

Supposn said:
MVP, the minimum wage laws in no manner causes or supports hiring discrimination and eliminating the minimum wage would not significantly reduce hiring discrimination but it will be economically detrimental to our nation and it will be particularly more detrimental to lower income families.

Can you prove that to me? It is pretty much widely accepted in economic academia that it causes discrimination. The unemployment rates after minimum wage hikes for blacks vs. whites and for teen blacks vs. teen whites both support the conclusion. The logic does too as the minimum wage removes the incentive not to discriminate at that labor price level. You cannot make a claim simply by saying it is true- I ask of you proof that it does not lead to discrimination or at least a dispute of why my proof doesn't prove my point.

Supposn said:
I never indicated that I’m pleased by the hiring disadvantages encountered by the poor, but your remedy would make all wage earners, (and particularly the working poor) poorer.

Again, proof please. (or at least a supporting argument for your claim)

Supposn said:
I’m not pleased with racial or ethnic discrimination but eliminating the minimum wage will not significantly and probably not measurably decrease such discrimination. I’m unaware of any proposed further legislative remedy that would significantly decrease such discrimination.

Except historically the lack of a minimum wage has led to less discrimination in practice. Furthermore, if you look at higher income levels where there is no price floor, this holds true- under-advantaged peoples can bargain better by taking lower pay. Those who then want to discriminate must pay the cost in hiring a more expensive worker if they want to stick to their bias.

Supposn said:
You’re blaming the minimum wage laws for our failing educational, taxing, global trade, border security, contracted foreign labor and public assistance policies.

No I am not. Where did I say that? You just seem to think a labor market at low price levels is immoral or not a good thing. I see it as opportunity. Thousands of illegal immigrants and many immigrants who first came to this country saw it as such too.

Supposn · Jul 1, 2011

Minimum wage

MVP, you?re simply counting additional jobs and ignoring the decreased purchasing power of the nations? median wages.

I don?t care how many additional jobs are created if the families of those newly employed workers suffer aggregate decreases of their incomes purchasing power.

Within every large USA city there are street beggars. I suspect that most of them have other income sources such as family and/or public welfare and/or an off the books enterprise and/or they steal.

I suspect the current median purchasing power of those incomes due to begging will far exceed the median purchasing power of our nation?s bottom 15% of our nation?s wage earners if we eliminate the federal median wage. I would suppose that some of those beggars are very successful at what they do but as segment of our nation?s income earners, most of them do not now approach the federal minimum wage rate.

Let?s discuss something else. I can?t conceive of any modifications of factors that would lead me to advocate eliminating the minimum wage.

Respectfully, Supposn

Supposn · Jul 1, 2011

Minimum wage

Originally Posted by Supposn

You?re blaming the minimum wage laws for our failing educational, taxing, global trade, border security, contracted foreign labor and public assistance policies.

myp said:
..................No I am not. Where did I say that? You just seem to think a labor market at low price levels is immoral or not a good thing. I see it as opportunity. Thousands of illegal immigrants and many immigrants who first came to this country saw it as such too.

MVP, I don't think of low wage jobs as immoral but I certainly believe that eliminating the minimum wage is contrary to our nation?s economic and social best interests.
I also believe that a nation society can be judged by its treatment of the least persons. Certainly that should also include the nation?s citizens.

You falsely blame the minimum wage for hiring discrimination and greater unemployment. The remedy for your complaints would be found by improving our educational, taxing, global trade, border security, contracted foreign labor and public assistance policies.

Respectfully, Supposn

myp · Jul 1, 2011

Supposn said:
Originally Posted by Supposn
You’re blaming the minimum wage laws for our failing educational, taxing, global trade, border security, contracted foreign labor and public assistance policies.

MVP, I don't think of low wage jobs as immoral but I certainly believe that eliminating the minimum wage is contrary to our nation’s economic and social best interests.
I also believe that a nation society can be judged by its treatment of the least persons. Certainly that should also include the nation’s citizens.

You falsely blame the minimum wage for hiring discrimination and greater unemployment. The remedy for your complaints would be found by improving our educational, taxing, global trade, border security, contracted foreign labor and public assistance policies.

Respectfully, Supposn

Supposn, you say I falsely claim this or that, but there are empirical studies and strong correlationary data that back what I say- it is widely accepted (or at least debatable) in the field. You however have not provided any response other than I am falsely making these statements which makes me think you don't want it to be true so you just think it isn't- unless you have something to prove my claims are untrue?

As for judging a country by the worst off- fine, then with the minimum wage you are judging the United States by the people who are priced out of the job market and have no job, cannot get a job, and have no money. At least in my scenario, even the worst off have a potential to find a job- without a minimum wage the worst off are better off than the worst off with a minimum wage.

TortoiseDream · Jul 1, 2011

myp said:
The minimum wage effectively incentivizes discrimination in the low-wage job market while also increasing unemployment. Black unemployment and teenage unemployment data before and after the implementation of the minimum wage in the US (and with subsequent hikes) suggest this. Furthermore, several empirical studies in academia have shown these phenomena to be true.

The big benefactor from minimum wage laws are special interest groups- namely the trade unions.

I agree with you in theory. However I have not done the research to see if the data supports this view. Can you point me towards these studies you refer to?

myp · Jul 1, 2011

TortoiseDream said:
I agree with you in theory. However I have not done the research to see if the data supports this view. Can you point me towards these studies you refer to?

There have been many empirical studies on the minimum wage and it's effects on employment and other factors over the years, with the vast majority drawing results that show it has a negative effect. Economist David Neumark and William Wascher put out a book titled Minimum Wages a couple years ago that went over and compiled a lot of the notable studies and they too concluded it was not a good policy.

On discrimination, there is also strong correlationary data from before and after the implementation of the minimum wage (and with subsequent hikes) that suggests that this in fact does happen. Even right now the black teenage unemployment rate is almost double that of all teens. I'll try to find you some better sources and post back later on this though, but the research is out there- this is something that even Friedman used to talk about in the 70s-80s.

What strikes me the most in these debates though is how defensive and unopen to this possibility people tend to be outside of economics circles. When it comes to economists, most of them find it a debatable topic and I remember seeing a recent poll where over 50% of polled economists nationwide said they opposed the minimum wage law. When I discuss this even in my personal life with friends or with most people, their intuition just does not give up even with data and logical arguments. At the least I think this is a debate worth having on the national stage, but I'm afraid the politicians are about as open to changing the policy as most citizens seem to be.

TortoiseDream · Jul 1, 2011

myp said:
There have been many empirical studies on the minimum wage and it's effects on employment and other factors over the years, with the vast majority drawing results that show it has a negative effect. Economist David Neumark and William Wascher put out a book titled Minimum Wages a couple years ago that went over and compiled a lot of the notable studies and they too concluded it was not a good policy.

On discrimination, there is also strong correlationary data from before and after the implementation of the minimum wage (and with subsequent hikes) that suggests that this in fact does happen. Even right now the black teenage unemployment rate is almost double that of all teens. I'll try to find you some better sources and post back later on this though, but the research is out there- this is something that even Friedman used to talk about in the 70s-80s.

What strikes me the most in these debates though is how defensive and unopen to this possibility people tend to be outside of economics circles. When it comes to economists, most of them find it a debatable topic and I remember seeing a recent poll where over 50% of polled economists nationwide said they opposed the minimum wage law. When I discuss this even in my personal life with friends or with most people, their intuition just does not give up even with data and logical arguments. At the least I think this is a debate worth having on the national stage, but I'm afraid the politicians are about as open to changing the policy as most citizens seem to be.

Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll look forward to more sources.

I think the problem people have with economic logic is not surprising. Often times, things are quite different than how they seem. The sun seems to go around the sun, but it doesn't; the earth seems to be flat, but it is not. The reason we can convince people that these naive views are wrong is because we can perform direct experiments. We cannot perform experiments like this is economics, there's no way to have a controlled environment. Try convincing people that the earth goes around the sun without being able to perform an experiment! That is essentially the task before us.

As for the minimum wage, I do find putting your debate partner in the position of a business owner (where the minimum wage comes into play) is helpful to see why it doesn't work.

Supposn · Jun 13, 2019

The Federal minimum wage rate is less a cause and more a victim of the U.S. dollar's rate of inflation.

Direct and indirect labor costs are not the same proportion of all products' costs; The hourly rates of those labor costs vary, and the effect of the minimum wage varies for each different hourly rate. These are the reasons why the federal minimum wage rate is not among the major factors driving the U.S. dollar's rate of inflation.

The federal reserve board controls our money supply and they are charged with what many people believe is the impossible task of regulating the U.S. Dollar's value. I appreciate that the Federal Reserve Board has demonstrated extreme competence because they haven't as yet entirely crashed our economy.

If the federal minimum wage rate's increased by 12.5% per year, the entire increases of prices are not attributable to the rate increase. Despite the Federal Reserve Board's efforts, prices continue to annually rise when the minimum wage rate has not been increased. Due to a forewarned 12.5% increase in the minimum wage rate, the increase to aggregate prices would be less than 2%.
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The federal minimum wager rate bolsters all wages, but it doesn't proportionally bolster all wage rates equally. Its proportional benefit is greater for lower, and lesser for higher wage rates.

If the minimum wage is increased from $7.25 to $8 per hour, (a 10.3% increase), the maximum beneficiaries will be the lowest wage employees. (a 9% increase); those earning $20 may receive $21.50 per hour, (a 9% increase); those earning $50 may receive $52 per hour, (a 4% increase). For those earning higher wages, the percentage of increase becomes imperceptible.

Respectfully, Supposn

PaulSmith69 · Jun 13, 2019

One's personal minimum wage should be lowest wage they'd be willing to accept. It should not be an arbitrary number created by bureaucrats.

Supposn · Jun 14, 2019

PaulSmith69 said:
One's personal minimum wage should be lowest wage they'd be willing to accept. It should not be an arbitrary number created by bureaucrats.

PaulSmith69, the U.S. Congress and the U.S. President have determined the legal federal minimum wage rate to be enforced upon applicable persons and organizations within our 50 states. No state is permitted to undermine that minimum and thus adversely affect the economies of other states. Federal law permits states and/or their local governments to increase that minimum within their jurisdictions.

Respectfully, Supposn

Supposn · Jun 14, 2019

PaulSmith69 said:
One's personal minimum wage should be lowest wage they'd be willing to accept. It should not be an arbitrary number created by bureaucrats.

PaulSmith69, the federal minimum wage rate is applicable to the least desirable workers or applicants for tasks demanding the least degrees of workers' qualifications. Unless there's a scarcity of such minimum rate workers and applicants, they're in the poorest positions to negotiate jobs' wage rates and conditions.

In the absence of a definite minimum rate, an indefinite market determined rate races to the bottom. The "bottom" rate is a rate of extremely low purchasing power.

The minimum rate has more effect upon lower, and less effect upon higher wage rates. Due to the concept of wage differentials, (excluding scarcity of available workers for specific jobs), the purchasing power of the minimum rate to some extent effects all other job rates.

Respectfully, Supposn

Supposn · Jun 15, 2019

TortoiseDream said:
... As for the minimum wage, I do find putting your debate partner in the position of a business owner (where the minimum wage comes into play) is helpful to see why it doesn't work.

TortoiseDream, I understand many employers would prefer if they had less need to negotiate, and their employees had more need to grovel.

If there were no enforced definite minimum rate, employees would be more fearful, docile, respectful. Relationships between employers and employees would be less egalitarian. Particularly in cases of the lowest paid employees, those relationships would be more similar to that between masters and slaves.

many employers now believe some or all of their lower-wage employees are not worthy of their costs to their enterprise. Those employers are not altruistic. They retain employees they may even despise because they've determined that firing those employees would be to their own, or their enterprise's net detriment.

The federal Minimum rate does not mandate that an employer hire, or retain any particular worker, or specify wage rates, but there is a legally enforceable minimum rate.

Respectfully, Supposn

PaulSmith69 · Jun 15, 2019

Minimum wages ADD to poverty, same as welfare does, rather than lifting people out of poverty.

NO incentive to get off one's lazy ass and improve one's self is a bad idea.

Supposn · Jun 15, 2019

PaulSmith69 said:
Minimum wages ADD to poverty, same as welfare does, rather than lifting people out of poverty.

NO incentive to get off one's lazy ass and improve one's self is a bad idea.

PaulSmith69, you contend that if the federal minimum wage rate were reduced more people would be willing to accept jobs, or are you contending that reducing the rate would not reduce the nation's median wage rate?

Respectfully, Supposn

PaulSmith69 · Jun 15, 2019

Supposn said:
PaulSmith69, you contend that if the federal minimum wage rate were reduced more people would be willing to accept jobs, or are you contending that reducing the rate would not reduce the nation's median wage rate?

Respectfully, Supposn

More jobs would be available, economy would improve (even more), companies will have greater profits allowing increased wages.

Supposn · Jun 15, 2019

PaulSmith69 said:
Minimum wages ADD to poverty, same as welfare does, rather than lifting people out of poverty.

NO incentive to get off one's lazy ass and improve one's self is a bad idea.

PaulSmith69 said:
More jobs would be available, economy would improve (even more), companies will have greater profits allowing increased wages.

PaulSmith69, we'll discuss your last post's scenario after you respond to my previous two-part question. Do you contend that if the federal minimum wage rate were reduced more people would be willing to work, or are you contending that reducing the rate would not reduce the nation's median wage rate?

Respectfully, Supposn

PaulSmith69 · Jun 15, 2019

Supposn said:
PaulSmith69, we'll discuss your last post's scenario after you respond to my previous two-part question. Do you contend that if the federal minimum wage rate were reduced more people would be willing to work, or are you contending that reducing the rate would not reduce the nation's median wage rate?

Respectfully, Supposn

In the short term: probably no & no, but in the long term: yes & yes.

Supposn · Jun 15, 2019

PaulSmith69, ... Do you contend that if the federal minimum wage rate were reduced more people would be willing to work, or are you contending that reducing the rate would not reduce the nation's median wage rate? Respectfully, Supposn

PaulSmith69 said:
In the short term: probably no & no, but in the long term: yes & yes.

PaulSmith69, OK. Now please explain or defend your "long term" position? Respectfully, Supposn

PaulSmith69 · Jun 16, 2019

Supposn said:
PaulSmith69, ... Do you contend that if the federal minimum wage rate were reduced more people would be willing to work, or are you contending that reducing the rate would not reduce the nation's median wage rate? Respectfully, Supposn
PaulSmith69, OK. Now please explain or defend your "long term" position? Respectfully, Supposn

Similar when welfare reform took place, and recipients were worse of at 1st, but later were much better off.

Minimum wage.

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