Mosque proposal near Ground Zero

myp · Aug 17, 2010

I'm sure everyone's heard of the Mosque/community center proposal near Ground Zero that has caused quite a bit of controversy in the past few days. Many New Yorkers and relatives of 9-11 victims oppose the plan and President Obama initially defended the proposal, citing that the government should not treat religions differently. He has since changed his message slightly and is now under criticism for being unclear.

The debate continues on. What are everyone's thoughts on the matter here?

David · Aug 17, 2010

myp said:
I'm sure everyone's heard of the Mosque/community center proposal near Ground Zero that has caused quite a bit of controversy in the past few days. Many New Yorkers and relatives of 9-11 victims oppose the plan and President Obama initially defended the proposal, citing that the government should not treat religions differently. He has since changed his message slightly and is now under criticism for being unclear.

The debate continues on. What are everyone's thoughts on the matter here?

If they start calling for the removal of all churches from Oklahoma City, all synagogues from Mideastern communities, all Buddhist Temples from Pearl Harbor, ect. then I'll start taking the 'anti-moderate Muslims trying to build a mosque and secular community center' crowd seriously. Until then this is a bunch of nothing over nothing by a bunch of people bored and too vain to go without the limelight.

myp · Aug 17, 2010

I will agree that this is really just overblown. We have bigger issues to focus on and Constitutionally they are completely justified in building that Mosque (no to mention their are 2 churches that are even closer to Ground Zero than the proposed Mosque would be.)

David · Aug 17, 2010

Scenario: In a mostly Muslim Iranian city exists a small Christian enclave serviced by an equally small church largely ignored by everyone but said Christians. This enclave's population and thus the church's congregation have recently increased. This congregation is moderate in practice and liberal in thinking and so recognizing a need for a larger building, have decided to take the opportunity to add a secular community center to their renovation project. In response, the local Muslim population starts to call for the destruction of the church declaring Christianity evil and the church a crusader foothold, never mind the church already exists is is trying to open up.

With some obvious changes, the above is what's happening in New York right now.

connermt · Aug 17, 2010

myp said:
I'm sure everyone's heard of the Mosque/community center proposal near Ground Zero that has caused quite a bit of controversy in the past few days. Many New Yorkers and relatives of 9-11 victims oppose the plan and President Obama initially defended the proposal, citing that the government should not treat religions differently. He has since changed his message slightly and is now under criticism for being unclear.

The debate continues on. What are everyone's thoughts on the matter here?

I think they have a right to put their mosque there, however, a sense of 'community' and improving relations between countries/religions, they should have the common sense to understand that "Hey, this might not be the most advantageuos thing we can do..." and put it somewhere else.

All this is doing is setting the stage to increase tension between "them and us".
It's not a good thing

David · Aug 17, 2010

connermt said:
I think they have a right to put their mosque there, however, a sense of 'community' and improving relations between countries/religions, they should have the common sense to understand that "Hey, this might not be the most advantageuos thing we can do..." and put it somewhere else.

All this is doing is setting the stage to increase tension between "them and us".
It's not a good thing

Read my last post. The mosque is already there with no opposition, they're trying to remodel it because it's too small.

Also...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL-3YYx6vHY[/YOUTUBE]

connermt · Aug 17, 2010

David said:
Read my last post. The mosque is already there with no opposition, they're trying to remodel it because it's too small.

Also...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL-3YYx6vHY[/YOUTUBE]

If that's the case, (though I haven't heard this until now) it changes the whole scenario

David · Aug 17, 2010

connermt said:
If that's the case, (though I haven't heard this until now) it changes the whole scenario

http://www.progressiveislam.org/it_mosque_and_how_far_ground_zero

The relevant part:

The 92nd Street Y, on which the Cordoba House is explicitly modeled, has a whole host of Jewish events take place inside of it, but no one calls it a synagogue. There's no good reason why Cordoba House should be misleadingly called a "mosque." I've been guilty of using this word too, in conversation and in writing, but it's inaccurate. Muslims already read the Quran and pray at 45 Park Place, but that does not and will not turn it into a "mosque."

I should also note that an outright mosque (the 1 that's too small) exists just 1 block away, ignored until recently.

concernedcitizen · Aug 17, 2010

Some people say it is too soon to build a mosque so close to ground zone. What sort of time line to people propose...15 years, 25 years? Personally it does not bother me but I can understand why it bothers others. In a perfect world they would build it, and it would be embraced by Americans to show the rest of the world that we are not at war with Islam, only the terrorists. No matter what peoples opinions are the US Constitution is very clear that they have the right, just like Christians have a right to build a church. The Constitution is NOT just for what suites our emotions at a particular time.

David · Aug 18, 2010

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/user/SamSeder?feature=pyv&ad=5199522473&kw=mosque#p/u/0/yPPxBrtrH1c[/YOUTUBE]

Okay, he's a New Yorker so his position is less then surprising. Still, he makes some good counterpoints to the anti-mosque crowd.

TortoiseDream · Aug 18, 2010

David said:
If they start calling for the removal of all churches from Oklahoma City, all synagogues from Mideastern communities, all Buddhist Temples from Pearl Harbor, ect. then I'll start taking the 'anti-moderate Muslims trying to build a mosque and secular community center' crowd seriously. Until then this is a bunch of nothing over nothing by a bunch of people bored and too vain to go without the limelight.

Agreed, very well put.

I think the opposition is mostly an emotional response, one that we can all understand.

AK_ID · Aug 18, 2010

Frankly, building a mosque at Ground Zero (and since a large chunk of landing gear crashed through the building where the mosque is planned, it qualifies as Ground Zero, even though it's two blocks away) is the equivalent of allowing Nazis to build a shrine to Hitler at the gates of Auschwitz. Respect for the fallen, and for those who have died since while fighting that enemy, should be enough to convince sensible people that a mosque does not belong at that site.

David · Aug 18, 2010

AK_ID said:
Frankly, building a mosque at Ground Zero (and since a large chunk of landing gear crashed through the building where the mosque is planned, it qualifies as Ground Zero, even though it's two blocks away) is the equivalent of allowing Nazis to build a shrine to Hitler at the gates of Auschwitz. Respect for the fallen, and for those who have died since while fighting that enemy, should be enough to convince sensible people that a mosque does not belong at that site.

So the fact that a mosque already, without opposition, exists and that Muslims died that day means nothing to you?

AK_ID · Aug 18, 2010

It means a lot to me that a number of Muslims died that day, and that some of them were driving those aircraft. We are, despite Obama's softening of the rhetoric, still at war with radical Islam, and it doesn't seem right to me to allow Islam to build a shrine on the graves of dead Americans while we're a nation at war against the very ideology that spawned the insult of 9/11.

And, David, you seemed to have avoided nicely my mention of a shrine to Nazism at the gates of Auschwitz. Would that not be an unacceptable insult to the victims?

David · Aug 18, 2010

AK_ID said:
It means a lot to me that a number of Muslims died that day, and that some of them were driving those aircraft. We are, despite Obama's softening of the rhetoric, still at war with radical Islam, and it doesn't seem right to me to allow Islam to build a shrine on the graves of dead Americans while we're a nation at war against the very ideology that spawned the insult of 9/11.

And, David, you seemed to have avoided nicely my mention of a shrine to Nazism at the gates of Auschwitz. Would that not be an unacceptable insult to the victims?

As you said, we're at war with radical Islam and it's moderate Muslims remodeling this mosque.

And AK_ID, you seem to have avoided nicely my mention of non-issue Buddhist temples at Pearl Harbor. What exactly is the difference?

AK_ID · Aug 18, 2010

David said:
As you said, we're at war with radical Islam and it's moderate Muslims remodeling this mosque.

And AK_ID, you seem to have avoided nicely my mention of non-issue Buddhist temples at Pearl Harbor. What exactly is the difference?

I missed your Buddhist temple comment way up yonder. Chalk it up to old fartdom. Regardless, we're not at war with Buddhists at the moment.

You might need to do further research on the mosque at issue in NYC. It's not exactly a remodeling job.

David · Aug 18, 2010

AK_ID said:
You might need to do further research on the mosque at issue in NYC. It's not exactly a remodeling job.

No but it's not exactly a new building project ether. The site is already used for Islamic study and just 1 block away they have a mosque that has become too small for their congregation. Nether sites have, until recently, been opposed and the Park Place address, in addition to already being an Islamic site, is larger, making it the logical place for expansion.

AK_ID · Aug 18, 2010

Well, heck, let's be ecumenical ...

What About the Ground Zero Church? Archdiocese Says Officials Abandoned Project

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America accused New York officials on Tuesday of turning their backs on the reconstruction of the only church destroyed in the Sept. 11 attacks, while the controversial mosque near Ground Zero moves forward. The sidelined project is the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, a tiny, four-story building destroyed in 2001 when one of the World Trade Center towers fell on top of it. Nobody from the church was hurt in the attack, but the congregation has for the past eight years been trying to rebuild its house of worship.
While the mosque project cleared red tape earlier this month, negotiations between the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey and the church stalled last year -- and will not be revived, according to government officials. Though the particulars of the two projects are completely different and on the surface unrelated, the church and its supporters see a disconnect in the way the proposals have been handled.
An archdiocese official said Tuesday that the situation has created "consternation" for those still struggling to jump-start talks over the church.
"We have people that are saying, why isn't our church being rebuilt and why is there ... such concern for people of the mosque?" Father Alex Karloutsos, assistant to the archbishop, told FoxNews.com. He said "religious freedom" would allow a place of worship for any denomination to be built, but accused officials with the Port Authority of making no effort to help move the congregation's project along.
A New York City panel voted unanimously to reject landmark status for a building in downtown Manhattan, paving the way for its demolition — and for the construction of a 13-story, $100 million mosque near the World Trade Center site.

"Unfortunately, they have just been silent -- dead silent, actually," said Karloutsos, whose father was ordained at St. Nicholas. "They just simply forgot about the church."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/17/ground-zero-church-archdiocese-says-officials-forgot/

obtuseobserver · Aug 18, 2010

David said:
Scenario: In a mostly Muslim Iranian city exists a small Christian enclave serviced by an equally small church largely ignored by everyone but said Christians. This enclave's population and thus the church's congregation have recently increased. This congregation is moderate in practice and liberal in thinking and so recognizing a need for a larger building, have decided to take the opportunity to add a secular community center to their renovation project. In response, the local Muslim population starts to call for the destruction of the church declaring Christianity evil and the church a crusader foothold, never mind the church already exists is is trying to open up.

David said:
With some obvious changes, the above is what's happening in New York right now.

those Christians you're referring to blew up which internationally known buildings in which Iranian city?

those Christians flew a plane into which Iranian defense building?

with some massive changes to get closer to analogous you see how silly your comment is

the fact is that the Imam in charge of the Cordoba Project refuses to condemn Hamas and refused to call the 9/11 attacks unjustified. He's not a moderate. They have every right to build their mosque. As another said, a moderate Muslim faction would not need to be told that what they are doing was not in the best interersts of engendering interfaith partnerships - they would already know.

anyway... even Howard Dean has said he thinks it is a bad idea...

“We have to understand that it is a real affront to people who lost their lives, including Muslims. That site doesn’t belong to any particular religion, it belongs to all Americans and all faiths.”

David · Aug 19, 2010

obtuseobserver said:
those Christians you're referring to blew up which internationally known buildings in which Iranian city?

Name a single Muslim relevant to this project that attacked us on 9/11. The fact their alive/free should be a hint.

those Christians flew a plane into which Iranian defense building?

See above.

with some massive changes to get closer to analogous you see how silly your comment is

So you generalize and then actually try and claim I'm using a bad example? :giggle:

the fact is that the Imam in charge of the Cordoba Project refuses to condemn Hamas and refused to call the 9/11 attacks unjustified. He's not a moderate. They have every right to build their mosque. As another said, a moderate Muslim faction would not need to be told that what they are doing was not in the best interersts of engendering interfaith partnerships - they would already know.

Proof of this? If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, you may want to take context into account.

anyway... even Howard Dean has said he thinks it is a bad idea...

Your point?

?We have to understand that it is a real affront to people who lost their lives, including Muslims. That site doesn?t belong to any particular religion, it belongs to all Americans and all faiths.?

Indeed, hence the secular community center.

Mosque proposal near Ground Zero

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