Right to work

myp · Dec 13, 2012

Michigan recently became the 24th? state to pass a "right to work" law which makes mandatory union membership illegal. I think it is a great move towards a freer labor market. Some think it undercuts unions too much, but I don't see how forced membership is a good thing for the workers who this is about at the end of the day.

Thoughts?

elvisroy0000 · Dec 13, 2012

i wish we would go further and Ban Union Thiggery altogethar

myp · Dec 13, 2012

elvisroy0000 said:
i wish we would go further and Ban Union Thiggery altogethar

Unions are not "thuggery". Do you want to ban corporations too?

tecoyah · Dec 13, 2012

myp said:
Unions are not "thuggery". Do you want to ban corporations too?

I commend you on the ability to transalate what he posted.

Unions were a major player in the middle class we now see. It may very well be the unions have outlived what they stand for....we shall see. But, there seems to be nothing in place to replace the function for average folk....the working class will be damaged.

David · Dec 13, 2012

myp said:
Thoughts?

I live in Florida. Florida is a right to work state. Even the conservatives grumble (I work with 1 that actually thinks we should unionize just to spite the system). It's not right to work, it's right to fire for any or no reason.

myp · Dec 13, 2012

David said:
I live in Florida. Florida is a right to work state. Even the conservatives grumble (I work with 1 that actually thinks we should unionize just to spite the system). It's not right to work, it's right to fire for any or no reason.

How is not being forced to join a union a reason to be fired? If someone doesn't want union dues and union protection, should it not be their choice?

David · Dec 13, 2012

myp said:
How is not being forced to join a union a reason to be fired? If someone doesn't want union dues and union protection, should it not be their choice?

That's the spin, in reality unions and labor rights laws lose their teeth. I happen to work for a company that hates to fire and refuses to even consider layoffs but I've known people to just be cut loose because their boss didn't like them or in retaliation for something because Right to 'Work' basically meant there was no such thing as unlawful termination (unless discriminatory). Maybe this law, being passed in a heavily unionized state, didn't gut labor rights. I haven't read the law and so don't know but that's how it is in Florida.

myp · Dec 13, 2012

This undercuts unions. No denying it. But I think it does in a way that is good. Unions thrive on numbers, but I firmly believe that those numbers should be voluntary, not forced on a condition of employment. If the union isn't appealing enough to get enough workers to join it, then maybe the union needs to change its structure or doesn't need to exist. It is there to protect the workers, not to protect itself and if the workers don't see the need for it- then that's that.

David · Dec 13, 2012

myp said:
This undercuts unions. No denying it. But I think it does in a way that is good. Unions thrive on numbers, but I firmly believe that those numbers should be voluntary, not forced on a condition of employment. If the union isn't appealing enough to get enough workers to join it, then maybe the union needs to change its structure or doesn't need to exist. It is there to protect the workers, not to protect itself and if the workers don't see the need for it- then that's that.

And if that's all it does, I've no issue. But I've not read the law and going by Florida's Right to Work, this isn't a good thing.

myp · Dec 13, 2012

David said:
And if that's all it does, I've no issue. But I've not read the law and going by Florida's Right to Work, this isn't a good thing.

What does Florida's law have that I didn't mention?

And I haven't read either law either :redface:

David · Dec 13, 2012

myp said:
What does Florida's law have that I didn't mention?/QUOTE]

I'm just saying what my experiences are. Having not read the law, I only have Florida's equivalent to base my opinion on.

=Zoomer= · Dec 14, 2012

I live in a right to be fired state as well. Although wages have historically been low here anyway, across the country the average worker wage is 4k less/yr in rtw states. Unions STILL have influence on non-union wages. The less influence unions have (strength = unity + financial support) the lower EVERYONE'S wages will be.

myp · Dec 14, 2012

=Zoomer= said:
I live in a right to be fired state as well. Although wages have historically been low here anyway, across the country the average worker wage is 4k less/yr in rtw states. Unions STILL have influence on non-union wages. The less influence unions have (strength = unity + financial support) the lower EVERYONE'S wages will be.

I am not sure of that conclusion. That has been a long-time union talking point, but I have seen studies that debunk that in reference to particular unions. Do you have any scientific literature on the matter, I'd be interested in seeing any studies that come to the opposite conclusion.

The 4k number alone means nothing as it is just correlation. Obviously a lot more variables at play there (one that jumps out in my mind is that conservative states tend to be more rural, etc. and have lower wages (and costs) generally as well as are probably rtw, whereas metropolitan areas will obviously have higher pay but also higher costs)

andrew320 · Dec 20, 2012

Although I completely support the right to associate and form a union, I do oppose forced union membership. It's surprising that so many people would oppose right-to-work. If I want to work for a company but not belong to a union, why should I be forced to?

Also, why are unions afraid of it? If they believe their union is the greatest and helps all of mankind then they would allow volunteerism as opposed to coercion.

Protectionist · Dec 26, 2012

David said:
And if that's all it does, I've no issue. But I've not read the law and going by Florida's Right to Work, this isn't a good thing.

I agree. I live in Florida too. Workers are tossed out of jobs on the flimsiest of reasons. One could fill a book on how many ways (many unjust) workers lose jobs here.

It's quite common (especially in these bad economic times) to see people fired just to make room for some bosses' friend or relative, who wants that job.
It's a disgrace. No matter what the worst abuses unions may be guilty of, they're a drop in the bucket compared to the abuses of companies in "right to work" states (the biggest misnomer ever invented)

clax · Dec 26, 2012

I live in a right to work state, I am a member of a union, they provide what unions should by my estimate. Protection from lawsuits.

I personally like the right to fire, if you suck you should get fired. You should not be forced into a union, you didn't get protection from being fired and if in the middle of the day I just wasn't to say screw you I quit, I should.

The reason some of the schools are so poorly operated is because the sorry lame and worthless employees are not able to be fired.

I run a business, ass side work, I have no employees, aside from my 14 year old. But of I did and they stopped working and forced my family into the streets, I like to know I could just can them and get employees that aren't greedy. .

chris7375 · Dec 27, 2012

myp said:
Michigan recently became the 24th? state to pass a "right to work" law which makes mandatory union membership illegal. I think it is a great move towards a freer labor market. Some think it undercuts unions too much, but I don't see how forced membership is a good thing for the workers who this is about at the end of the day.

Thoughts?

I myself have worked both Union and Non-Union jobs throughout my life. Seeing how both work and how the pay is truly tipped in the Unions favor.

I think Unions have become to greedy in this country and are part of the reason business has been driven to foreign countries. They have inflated their wages to the point of making the U.S. more or less shunned for employment in Manufacturing.

I worked in Healthcare for 18 years. I worked in the Suply end of the Hospital. The first hospital I worked at was Union and I was paid well above average. Though it was difficult to get promoted even if you were more qualified then someone else. Seniority ruled not ones qualifications.

Now I just left a non-union hospital where I started out low and worked my way up based on qualifications. Though the pay scale was tilted in favor of the union benefits were better at the non-union hospital they offered more. So I prefer non-union hospitals.

Unions were good at one time but they have become greedy in their endeavors and are part of the reason business has left the U.S..

Then I think our tax dollars pay Union salaries that are over inflated because the Union deems it that way. I find that appalling and unfair. When the average Secretary salary is 72 thousand dollars a year when in reality it maybe worth 35 at most.

So I for one am glad Michigan did this.

tecoyah · Dec 27, 2012

chris7375 said:
I myself have worked both Union and Non-Union jobs throughout my life. Seeing how both work and how the pay is truly tipped in the Unions favor.

I think Unions have become to greedy in this country and are part of the reason business has been driven to foreign countries. They have inflated their wages to the point of making the U.S. more or less shunned for employment in Manufacturing.

I worked in Healthcare for 18 years. I worked in the Suply end of the Hospital. The first hospital I worked at was Union and I was paid well above average. Though it was difficult to get promoted even if you were more qualified then someone else. Seniority ruled not ones qualifications.

Now I just left a non-union hospital where I started out low and worked my way up based on qualifications. Though the pay scale was tilted in favor of the union benefits were better at the non-union hospital they offered more. So I prefer non-union hospitals.

Unions were good at one time but they have become greedy in their endeavors and are part of the reason business has left the U.S..

Then I think our tax dollars pay Union salaries that are over inflated because the Union deems it that way. I find that appalling and unfair. When the average Secretary salary is 72 thousand dollars a year when in reality it maybe worth 35 at most.

So I for one am glad Michigan did this.

I have had both union, and non-union staffs. I treated my union staff with more active respect than the later...because I had too.

Hmm....I suppose its a matter of perspective.

myp · Dec 27, 2012

tecoyah, chris, I don't think it is a black and white matter like that. Some unions do good, others don't. It is the same as it is with corporations.

clax · Dec 27, 2012

myp said:
tecoyah, chris, I don't think it is a black and white matter like that. Some unions do good, others don't. It is the same as it is with corporations.

(Behold, the earth stood still)

I agree completely with you myp.

Right to work

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