Jan 2013
10
0
Kansas, USA
The first amendment separated church and state.

" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Meaning it isn't involved, frankly I don't want it to be. I don't need uncle sam telling me hi ampraying wrong.

I totally agree and know that, but the problem is that there are many people that want their religion more prominent in government. A lot of the southern states in some areas put their religions over science. Their laws are crafted by congressmen that hold their legislation to their beliefs. That is the problem.
 
Jan 2012
1,975
5
Texas
I totally agree and know that, but the problem is that there are many people that want their religion more prominent in government. A lot of the southern states in some areas put their religions over science. Their laws are crafted by congressmen that hold their legislation to their beliefs. That is the problem.

Yeah they can be troublesome bunch. But the first amendment protects them too
 
Last edited:
Oct 2012
4,429
1,084
Louisville, Ky
I'm not sure the 1st would allow for the freedom to legislate based on religion, though I suppose it could be argued.

Seems to me that would go against the very definition of the separation clause.
 
Jan 2013
10
0
South of England
I can't comment on the American Constitution as a Brit, because I've never studied it ... I only really know those first beautiful words of the Declaration of Independence. So I'm just contrasting and comparing my impressions about the UK and the USA in the present day.

Its true that in the UK we do still have the Church and State tangled up ... the Queen is Head of State still, and she's also still the Head of the Church (I forget what the title is, but in there somewhere is "Defender of the Faith", originally granted by the Pope to Henry VIII, which is quite funny considering what came a short time later).

Anyway ... yep, although we have that tangle still, we're a much more secular society, in general, than America. I literally don't know anyone, any friend or relation, who goes to church. No one, and I think thats maybe quite uncommon in America. To me, all religions are artificial, *man* made (not *woman* made) constructs, no more, no less. I think all of them, in some way, reflect the deeper spiritual truths, but they're usually affected by the society and the time that expresses them.

I think there are one or two schools in this country that teach creationism, but its certainly got no place on the curriculum, and very, very few people take it seriously.

The major thing that sticks in my mind about religion and public life in the two countries, is the way American politicians, or the ones we hear about in the UK anyway, refer to God and God's strength and God's guidance, pretty regularly. When Tony Blair was coming to the end of his time in office, he did it once, he said that God would judge what he'd done in relation to the Second Gulf War. And the uproar was immediate, it was basically this: no, Tony, you'll be judged well before that. The voters will judge you. He resigned, of course, before we could, but no one over here has any doubt about the level of public disapproval of statements like that.
 
Oct 2012
4,429
1,084
Louisville, Ky
As a general rule, very few politicians here (Or indeed people in general), do anything other than give lip service to the church. Though we try to avoid allowing religion into our Government, it still creeps in stealthily (See Abortion) and effects our population as well as our laws.

Eventually, we may evolve as a society beyond this...as we have come a long way in our little experiment. But, we are not there yet.
 
Jan 2012
1,975
5
Texas
As a general rule, very few politicians here (Or indeed people in general), do anything other than give lip service to the church. Though we try to avoid allowing religion into our Government, it still creeps in stealthily (See Abortion) and effects our population as well as our laws.

Eventually, we may evolve as a society beyond this...as we have come a long way in our little experiment. But, we are not there yet.

I really think in general people pay lip service to religion. Really only using it to support their positions.

I don't know about a lot of religious discussion going on regarding evolution, homosexuality, politics, middle east, abortion, and secularism, seems everybody ignores the good will toward others, the charity, the coming together. It seems people generally use religion to establish their own piety based on how every body else is messing up.
 
Jan 2012
1,975
5
Texas
I'm not sure the 1st would allow for the freedom to legislate based on religion, though I suppose it could be argued.

Seems to me that would go against the very definition of the separation clause.

We choose or legislators based on votes, if a politician takes the liberty to appeal to a synch Christian base and gets elected then they are allowed to be legislators. As long as they don't establish a state religion. Just saying "I am against abortion because" is the loop hole you can have beliefs as long as they don't say they are religious beliefs.

Its dirty pool but it is the way it works.
 
Jun 2012
740
8
Stuart
I really think in general people pay lip service to religion. Really only using it to support their positions.

I don't know about a lot of religious discussion going on regarding evolution, homosexuality, politics, middle east, abortion, and secularism, seems everybody ignores the good will toward others, the charity, the coming together. It seems people generally use religion to establish their own piety based on how every body else is messing up.

What I noticed through the years and I was guilty of it when I was younger. That is people go through the motions of religion meaning the do it to make themselves look good but it has no meaning to them.

My family was never very religious. I was born and raised Catholic though the faith I did not find true and honestly their preaching quite Hypocritical (though not all Catholic Church's are this way).

My mother when I was a teenager decide to go to a Nondenominational Church. Mind you I was a teen so church was the last thing on my mind. I really did not see God working in my life ever.
That was until my first wife got sick with breast cancer. They say you turn to faith in times of trouble which is true. Though most people shy away from faith after the trouble passes. Though throughout her sickness until her death I saw God work in our lives. From the onset the Cancer was fatal because it was a rare breast cancer. They gave her five years to live.
It was a hard financially troubling road to go down. It drained us financial and all during this I prayed for help and guidance. God saw us through there were times I did not have enough to pay for bills or buy food yet money always seemed to turn up when we needed it. Her last Christmas with us was particularly hard because we did not have the money to buy gifts. Though a few knew of our struggles. Someone how they did it I don't know got into our house without us there and put presents under the tree for kids that was the best Christmas I can say I ever had.
She died later that following summer in bed next to me. Her body had finally given up the fight and to tell you the truth I prayed to God he would take her quick and not make it drawn out and let her suffer and it was answered. I was at peace when she passed because I knew her suffering was over.
 
Jan 2012
1,975
5
Texas
What I noticed through the years and I was guilty of it when I was younger. That is people go through the motions of religion meaning the do it to make themselves look good but it has no meaning to them.

My family was never very religious. I was born and raised Catholic though the faith I did not find true and honestly their preaching quite Hypocritical (though not all Catholic Church's are this way).

My mother when I was a teenager decide to go to a Nondenominational Church. Mind you I was a teen so church was the last thing on my mind. I really did not see God working in my life ever.
That was until my first wife got sick with breast cancer. They say you turn to faith in times of trouble which is true. Though most people shy away from faith after the trouble passes. Though throughout her sickness until her death I saw God work in our lives. From the onset the Cancer was fatal because it was a rare breast cancer. They gave her five years to live.
It was a hard financially troubling road to go down. It drained us financial and all during this I prayed for help and guidance. God saw us through there were times I did not have enough to pay for bills or buy food yet money always seemed to turn up when we needed it. Her last Christmas with us was particularly hard because we did not have the money to buy gifts. Though a few knew of our struggles. Someone how they did it I don't know got into our house without us there and put presents under the tree for kids that was the best Christmas I can say I ever had.
She died later that following summer in bed next to me. Her body had finally given up the fight and to tell you the truth I prayed to God he would take her quick and not make it drawn out and let her suffer and it was answered. I was at peace when she passed because I knew her suffering was over.
Glad you pulled through. That must be tough.
 
Jun 2012
740
8
Stuart
Glad you pulled through. That must be tough.

Oh I did and not for the worse. It was hard but it was what solidified my faith. It was a learning lesson for me and my kids. I walked away having a greater understanding of what is expected of me.
 
Jan 2012
1,975
5
Texas
Oh I did and not for the worse. It was hard but it was what solidified my faith. It was a learning lesson for me and my kids. I walked away having a greater understanding of what is expected of me.

I personally was tried just recently, it wound up with my lover and i adopting his kid brother. He has been staying with us for about 9 months now, he is a teen. I opened my home to him, now he has us.
 
Jun 2012
740
8
Stuart
I personally was tried just recently, it wound up with my lover and i adopting his kid brother. He has been staying with us for about 9 months now, he is a teen. I opened my home to him, now he has us.

That is great I am glad for you all.
 
Jan 2012
1,975
5
Texas
That is great I am glad for you all.

Its very difficult, things had to change. alas I fear we have derailed this thread topic.

It seems that in certain churches that it is more about how closely you adhere to the dogma than it is about love and community, redemption and grace. Its quite sad that is what it is for some people.

I don't think anybody would be against the positive side of it, that's really all I see.
 
Jun 2012
740
8
Stuart
Its very difficult, things had to change. alas I fear we have derailed this thread topic.

It seems that in certain churches that it is more about how closely you adhere to the dogma than it is about love and community, redemption and grace. Its quite sad that is what it is for some people.

I don't think anybody would be against the positive side of it, that's really all I see.

I would agree though you have to find a Place of worship that is well balanced with your beliefs. Though like I said I find people just go more or less to look good not to practice.

Though in reality religion should be separated from government entities. The only thing schools should teach is I believe an overall history of all religions and maybe why people believe what they do. Though the history should include the wars so it can be shown religion is not perfect either.
 
Feb 2012
536
6
England
I can't comment on the American Constitution as a Brit, because I've never studied it ... I only really know those first beautiful words of the Declaration of Independence. So I'm just contrasting and comparing my impressions about the UK and the USA in the present day.

Its true that in the UK we do still have the Church and State tangled up ... the Queen is Head of State still, and she's also still the Head of the Church (I forget what the title is, but in there somewhere is "Defender of the Faith", originally granted by the Pope to Henry VIII, which is quite funny considering what came a short time later).

Anyway ... yep, although we have that tangle still, we're a much more secular society, in general, than America. I literally don't know anyone, any friend or relation, who goes to church. No one, and I think thats maybe quite uncommon in America. To me, all religions are artificial, *man* made (not *woman* made) constructs, no more, no less. I think all of them, in some way, reflect the deeper spiritual truths, but they're usually affected by the society and the time that expresses them.

I think there are one or two schools in this country that teach creationism, but its certainly got no place on the curriculum, and very, very few people take it seriously.

The major thing that sticks in my mind about religion and public life in the two countries, is the way American politicians, or the ones we hear about in the UK anyway, refer to God and God's strength and God's guidance, pretty regularly. When Tony Blair was coming to the end of his time in office, he did it once, he said that God would judge what he'd done in relation to the Second Gulf War. And the uproar was immediate, it was basically this: no, Tony, you'll be judged well before that. The voters will judge you. He resigned, of course, before we could, but no one over here has any doubt about the level of public disapproval of statements like that.
I was having a good day until I read 'that' name! :)

He did not have the courage of his convictions i.e. he didnt have the decency or bravery to openly state that he was following the Catholic faith until AFTER he left office. Whether or not that says more about him or religion is open to opinion however, as a non follower of any religion I do not appreciate him praying to his God and then leading my country into a war based on the answer he got!
 
Jan 2012
1,975
5
Texas
I would agree though you have to find a Place of worship that is well balanced with your beliefs. Though like I said I find people just go more or less to look good not to practice.

Though in reality religion should be separated from government entities. The only thing schools should teach is I believe an overall history of all religions and maybe why people believe what they do. Though the history should include the wars so it can be shown religion is not perfect either.

I agree, I was actually run off from my church because of my boy. It became a hostile environment.

The ones that created that environment are exactly the reason there is a separation of church and state. I do my best to shield him from that outside of school, I know he has to learn to cope with it but he should have a safe place where the pretentious facade is not necessary and his guard can be let down.

Again mixing personal stuff in. In my opinion religion isn't God, it is man attempting to collectively worship, mainly to create a place where your guard can be let down.
 
Jun 2012
740
8
Stuart
I agree, I was actually run off from my church because of my boy. It became a hostile environment.

The ones that created that environment are exactly the reason there is a separation of church and state. I do my best to shield him from that outside of school, I know he has to learn to cope with it but he should have a safe place where the pretentious facade is not necessary and his guard can be let down.

Again mixing personal stuff in. In my opinion religion isn't God, it is man attempting to collectively worship, mainly to create a place where your guard can be let down.

No I agree religion was man made one can worship God However he sees fit. Though whether it is correct or not is to be found out at a later point in time. My belief may not be correct and someone else's may be the belief you were suppose to have. Faith drives my belief faith that I am doing it the best way I can in the correct way.
 
Oct 2012
4,429
1,084
Louisville, Ky
I agree, I was actually run off from my church because of my boy. It became a hostile environment.

The ones that created that environment are exactly the reason there is a separation of church and state. I do my best to shield him from that outside of school, I know he has to learn to cope with it but he should have a safe place where the pretentious facade is not necessary and his guard can be let down.

Again mixing personal stuff in. In my opinion religion isn't God, it is man attempting to collectively worship, mainly to create a place where your guard can be let down.


If you have a local Unitarian Church, and wish to enjoy the good stuff religion can provide....I might recommend you attend a service.

About as close to what the Christ seems to have wanted as we have here.


No dogma, judgement, brimstone, or greed.....from what I could tell.
 
Jan 2012
1,975
5
Texas
If you have a local Unitarian Church, and wish to enjoy the good stuff religion can provide....I might recommend you attend a service.

About as close to what the Christ seems to have wanted as we have here.


No dogma, judgement, brimstone, or greed.....from what I could tell.

Need to look into the unitarian church. Some family issues are causing me concern.
 
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