Should Medicare, social security, and free schools be eliminated?

deanhills said:

I thoroughly believe in change and working towards change but we were discussing medical care in the United States specifically. In this specific instance i.e. medical care in the United States I'm being realistic. I can't see the US medical care system changing to a socialist one in our life time. I believe the needs that have been discussed are immediate ones. So either one has to conform to the present situation and work on long-term changes, accepting that it will take that long, or if one needs good medical care more immediately, and I imagine especially when one retires, find a place to retire to that has good social services.

Regarding the other issues that need change that is up to the person as well along the above lines. If you can't see change happening and it really upsets you, yes, one can move to another country. It's a personal decision.

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Sounds too much like ignoring the problem to me.

By the by, a socialist system would be provided by and for the local community. It annoys me to hear the old lie repeated that nationalisation equals socialism. It's just a Conservative myth to attribute the beaureaucratic inefficiency of that NATIONALIST system to socialism.

Dirk said:

Sounds too much like ignoring the problem to me.

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We only have so many years of life on this earth. This is not about ignoring the problem. It is about looking at the problem practically and realistically and then to figure out whether you can change the situation. If you cannot change the situation, to consider whether you could live with that and either accept it or move on. When people get close to retirement age the first priority in relocation or looking at their financial future is access to medical care. I would find it practical to move to a country at that stage where medical care is easy to access from a cost, quality and proximity point of view.

deanhills said:

We only have so many years of life on this earth. This is not about ignoring the problem. It is about looking at the problem practically and realistically and then to figure out whether you can change the situation. If you cannot change the situation, to consider whether you could live with that and either accept it or move on. When people get close to retirement age the first priority in relocation or looking at their financial future is access to medical care. I would find it practical to move to a country at that stage where medical care is easy to access from a cost, quality and proximity point of view.

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Well, when you hit your seventies, i'll meet you in Hamburg.

I understand what you mean: pragmatism. I'll give you that. When it's life-threatening, yes, i understand that. For my example, though, i can't realistically stop nuclear weapons in Germany or Britain, or make them split off from NATO. Governments don't listen to the workers. But i'm still going to stay here and fight it to the end.

curious said:

Well, I don't have a problem with more comfort, any more than I have a problem with rich people staying in a five-star hotel while I sit in a Motel 6. But my bypass surgery should be every bit as good as a rich person's bypass surgery, my meds should arrive at my bed as promptly, my room should be as clean, and my follow up care should be of the same quality. If my docto doesn't have Architectural Digest in the waiting room, so what. But he should be able to send my lab work to a quality lab.

And it shouldn't cost me more because I don't have insurance (I'm unisurable, so even been moderately well off wouldn't help much). And I shouldn't have to debate when I get sick, can I afford to go to the doctor, or should I wait and see if it clears up on its own?

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I'm 100 pro for you, mate. Your wealth should not decide the quality of care you get. There should be no such thing as uninsurable, that's disgusting. Why are you "uninsurable", if you don't mind me asking?

Minor differences are next to irrelevant, as long as the quality of care doesn't differ. I don't mind that. I do, however, get pissed off when some toff's up in his presidential suite of a 5 star hotel, complaining that the champagne he ordered is from the wrong year, when some poor blighter's sitting back against a wall in the street, begging for a passerby's spare pennies. His clothes are ragged, he hasn't had a shower in a week. He has one shoe. The toff has a four-poster bed, worth a good few thousand dollars. The craftsmanship is exquisite. You know where the beggar sleeps? He sleeps in a public bathroom, Curious. The only form of heating he has is a hand-dryer. Warm water is erratic. It's usually too cold and sometimes too hot. That rich bastard feels the urge and walks across the animal rug to reach his en suite bathroom, which is big enough to play a tennis match in. The toilets are blocked in the public bathroom. It smells like hell reborn. When he needs a pee, of course, surprise surprise, they're all being used. He has to pee in the sink. In a poor imitation of sanitation, he runs the tap/faucet a bit after that. He hasn't had a job for twenty years. You need a home address for the asses to even look at you. He's so depressed with his worthless life that he drinks most of the money he gets. That's after he seperates the pennies from the washers that some smartass idiots put into his little wooden bowl. He's saving up, Curious. He's already saved up almost 4 dollars! When he's saved up enough, he'll buy himself a gun. Then he'll shoot himself.

curious said:

America has lost its soul. Did you notice that during the recent presidential campaign, the word 'poor' was never used. It was all 'middle class'.

I guess that isn't as bad as it sounds. Someone did a study a long time ago and discovered that almost all Americans think of themselves as middle class. People who are below the poverty level think of themselves as 'middle class' and people who are in the top 1 per cent of income think of themselves as middle class. Apparently, until net worth hits tens of millions, we think we are 'middle class'.

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That is true, but indirectly I heard voices for the poor through Obama's assurance of a new health care system that will be available to everyone. I thought I heard that the poor has no access to medicare.

Dirk said:

Well, when you hit your seventies, i'll meet you in Hamburg.

I understand what you mean: pragmatism. I'll give you that. When it's life-threatening, yes, i understand that. For my example, though, i can't realistically stop nuclear weapons in Germany or Britain, or make them split off from NATO. Governments don't listen to the workers. But i'm still going to stay here and fight it to the end.

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I admire that. What is that saying about a rolling stone gathers no moss (me) and your roots have to go deep.

curious said:

America has lost its soul. Did you notice that during the recent presidential campaign, the word 'poor' was never used. It was all 'middle class'.

I guess that isn't as bad as it sounds. Someone did a study a long time ago and discovered that almost all Americans think of themselves as middle class. People who are below the poverty level think of themselves as 'middle class' and people who are in the top 1 per cent of income think of themselves as middle class. Apparently, until net worth hits tens of millions, we think we are 'middle class'.

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You want to know something interesting? The huge majority of America is working-class. And the Federal Poverty Line is misleading, by the way. Realistically, anyone who earns under $30'000 per year is poor. By my calculations.

Oh, by the way. It might be interesting for you to note. The story i told is based on a real person i met. He was the reason i became a socialist in the first place. So don't ignore it.

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stones Cunard (mêlée, final vociferations) tennis… the stones… so calm… Cunard… unfinished…”