Switzerland proposes tougher measures against right-to-die organizations

GOP · Feb 6, 2010

DodgeFB said:
The doctor should be the last one to decide. But it usually comes down to the doctor when the time comes. Because no one wants to deal with it up front before things go bad. Three years ago in Oct. my oldest daughter was killed on the way to work. Do I wish that had not happened. I sure do. Would I ask for her back with me with those injuries? Hell no. I would rather feel the pain of her being gone than ask her to live like they said it would have been. And that is as close to me laying my guts out to the world as I can get. That is how strongly I feel about the right to die.

First of all, sorry to hear that such a tragic thing happened.

But it's still differs from what we discussed earlier. When someone are killed, no one can foresee that happening. It, unfortunately, just happens. In this matter it's what I call "planned murder". They plan it because of the pains a patient is feeling but usually when you're in pain, you're drugged or for that matter in a coma. Then there has to be a doctor there, or family and friends, to make this decision. I believe this is unfair to the patient, how do they know that that person doesn't want to live? It's murdering innocent human beings because we assume they'd like it to be in a certain way. This is way too important to assume what the patient is feeling.

DodgeFB · Feb 6, 2010

GOP said:
First of all, sorry to hear that such a tragic thing happened.

But it's still differs from what we discussed earlier. When someone are killed, no one can foresee that happening. It, unfortunately, just happens. In this matter it's what I call "planned murder". They plan it because of the pains a patient is feeling but usually when you're in pain, you're drugged or for that matter in a coma. Then there has to be a doctor there, or family and friends, to make this decision. I believe this is unfair to the patient, how do they know that that person doesn't want to live? It's murdering innocent human beings because we assume they'd like it to be in a certain way. This is way too important to assume what the patient is feeling.

That is why everyone needs to take care of those decisions before it happens. Then everyone knows how you feel. It makes no difference if someone on the outside of the family does not understand. If everyone in the family knows, if something happens this is what I want. That should do it. If someone tells their family I don't care how bad it gets, if my bowels are moving from my mouth I want to live. Them put them on the "hanging on" plan. It really should be simple. If people would just respect each others right to make the choice.

GOP · Feb 6, 2010

DodgeFB said:
That is why everyone needs to take care of those decisions before it happens. Then everyone knows how you feel. It makes no difference if someone on the outside of the family does not understand. If everyone in the family knows, if something happens this is what I want. That should do it. If someone tells their family I don't care how bad it gets, if my bowels are moving from my mouth I want to live. Them put them on the "hanging on" plan. It really should be simple. If people would just respect each others right to make the choice.

And what are you supposed to do if someone changes their mind? You will never know that. Are we supposed to take that risk? I believe the answer to that is no, simply because taking over the control of others decisions like in a corrupt country or something. Why are we supposed to sink to those levels, we are modernized human beings and we should work for life not against it.

DodgeFB · Feb 6, 2010

GOP said:
And what are you supposed to do if someone changes their mind? You will never know that. Are we supposed to take that risk? I believe the answer to that is no, simply because taking over the control of others decisions like in a corrupt country or something. Why are we supposed to sink to those levels, we are modernized human beings and we should work for life not against it.

You don't understand and for you sake I hope you never have to. Just like your will. If you change your mind you make other arrangements. See I don't want someone else "guessing" what I want. That is why I put it in a legal document.

There is a big difference between "life" and "living". That is something you have to learn on your own. And it is sad people like me have to "do a work around" people who feel like you just to get you to leave us alone.

GOP · Feb 6, 2010

DodgeFB said:
You don't understand and for you sake I hope you never have to. Just like your will. If you change your mind you make other arrangements. See I don't want someone else "guessing" what I want. That is why I put it in a legal document.

This is not an "arrangement" you can just undo, once you're dead you're dead. There's no way back. And it will be guessing, if you put this in a legal document you can still change your mind. And I know how easy it is to think of, sometimes when things very negative, how it might be just to be dead but I thank myself everyday for the fact that I am a live. It will most definitely be guessing, a legal document will first of all hardly cover the entire population and second of all how can you make sure that the person thinks the same today as he or she did once they signed the legal document? I believe the vast majority of people can much more easily speak about death, but once it comes knocking on your door most of us are frightened and run away.

DodgeFB · Feb 6, 2010

GOP said:
This is not an "arrangement" you can just undo, once you're dead you're dead. There's no way back. And it will be guessing, if you put this in a legal document you can still change your mind. And I know how easy it is to think of, sometimes when things very negative, how it might be just to be dead but I thank myself everyday for the fact that I am a live. It will most definitely be guessing, a legal document will first of all hardly cover the entire population and second of all how can you make sure that the person thinks the same today as he or she did once they signed the legal document? I believe the vast majority of people can much more easily speak about death, but once it comes knocking on your door most of us are frightened and run away.

It knocked on my door in 1984. And I have never changed my mind.

GOP · Feb 6, 2010

DodgeFB said:
It knocked on my door in 1984. And I have never changed my mind.

But you're one individual. The system needs to cover millions. How can you make sure each and every one are sticking to what they've signed on to?

DodgeFB · Feb 6, 2010

GOP said:
But you're one individual. The system needs to cover millions. How can you make sure each and every one are sticking to what they've signed on to?

How can you be sure that people who have faced it don't know what they want. Just because you don't agree with them does not make them wrong. People who have never faced it should not dictate how the person should die or when.

GOP · Feb 6, 2010

DodgeFB said:
How can you be sure that people who have faced it don't know what they want.

My point exactly! You don't know, so should we assume that just because you've signed something years ago that you still believe it's right today? Maybe some do, and some don't. It would be murder if you pulled the plug on someone who changed their mind, and that might occur.

DodgeFB said:
Just because you don't agree with them does not make them wrong.

I never said they were wrong. But I am just including the people who might change their mind into this debate and I'm saying that these people might be killed against their own will.

DodgeFB said:
People who have never faced it should not dictate how the person should die or when.

It's not dictating anyone. It's giving them the chance to live. Legalizing medical murder is a dictation beyond anything else.

DodgeFB · Feb 6, 2010

GOP said:
My point exactly! You don't know, so should we assume that just because you've signed something years ago that you still believe it's right today? Maybe some do, and some don't. It would be murder if you pulled the plug on someone who changed their mind, and that might occur.

I never said they were wrong. But I am just including the people who might change their mind into this debate and I'm saying that these people might be killed against their own will.

It's not dictating anyone. It's giving them the chance to live. Legalizing medical murder is a dictation beyond anything else.

Let's face it. There is no way to change your mind. Ten doctors, twenty family members, and ten strangers watching a video taken of the person saying "I need to die" in the last hour would not change your mind. Many others feel as you do. That is why families and friends will continue to find their loved ones dead from gunshot, carbon monoxide, or some other sad and messy way.

GOP · Feb 6, 2010

DodgeFB said:
Let's face it. There is no way to change your mind. Ten doctors, twenty family members, and ten strangers watching a video taken of the person saying "I need to die" in the last hour would not change your mind.

That's not reality. It will not be performed for so many people. What we are talking about is a document people sign. And how many people today don't sign different things without thinking of the consequences, one of the main reasons for this financial crisis was too much use and too many documents signed by people who never managed to pay a dime back. Most people can do the same again without thinking of the consequences and even maybe changing their minds.

DodgeFB said:
Many others feel as you do. That is why families and friends will continue to find their loved ones dead from gunshot, carbon monoxide, or some other sad and messy way.

And you think this will stop? You earlier said that doctors already pull the plug today without anyone knowing. Do you see people stop using guns because of this or in other ways killing themselves? That's a utopia.

DodgeFB · Feb 6, 2010

GOP said:
Do you see people stop using guns because of this or in other ways killing themselves? That's a utopia.

I don't know about others. But it would stop me from using a gun.

Been nice chatting. See ya later. Now I am depressed.

GOP · Feb 6, 2010

DodgeFB said:
I don't know about others. But it would stop me from using a gun.

So then that's a useless argument. People will of course keep committing suicide, but the most dangerous signal we can send to people who are on the verge of killing themselves is to legalize it. Then they will at least think it's okay.

DodgeFB said:
Been nice chatting. See ya later.

Same to you.

Daktoria · Feb 6, 2010

DodgeFB said:
I could not disagree more.I have had to think about this more than most for a long time. Is it better to just take your medicine and be with your family when you die? Or cut your wrist in the bathroom? Or as one of my friends did, put a shotgun under your chin and pull the trigger with your toe? And let someone "just find you". Pain control is not what some think it is.

That's the point. Life is an individual's condition, so if other individuals endure pain from the removal of another individual's existence, that's the risk others assume when choosing to associate with that individual, no less than when an individual dies naturally.

Daktoria · Feb 6, 2010

GOP said:
It's easy to speak of yourself as an individual. But what about the millions, or billions for that matter of other people?

Not giving people the opportunities they deserve to live is the mistreatment. I think society is brutal in this way that when we don't feel comfortable with something or are hurting we'll just give it all up. One day can be bad, but you never know what's around the corner.

Who is obligated to maintain another's life? If anything, such an obligation eliminates the possibility of goodwill altogether because it removes the possibility of maintenance from interest instead.

It would be coercion to force people to provide for each other; charity can only come about when we care enough to take initiative for our fellow man's understanding, so the supply of undesired services would not be charitable.

We cannot legislate morality.

GOP · Feb 6, 2010

Daktoria said:
Who is obligated to maintain another's life? If anything, such an obligation eliminates the possibility of goodwill altogether because it removes the possibility of maintenance from interest instead.

Who is obligated to end an innocent human life?

Daktoria · Feb 7, 2010

Nobody, but that's not the question. A right to die does not require anyone else to end the life of a death-seeker.

deanhills · Feb 7, 2010

Daktoria said:
The right to die is a perfect example of why government should be minimized. Is it tolerable? Yes, but barely. A humane government has to first show that it's loyal to living constituents, so a right to life has to be acknowledged as well. Otherwise, the government can exploit naive individuals under duress just to advance ulterior motives by literally subsidizing the killing off of dissent, subsidizing which starts with the social engineering of lifestyles such that frustrated individuals don't want to live anymore since every waking moment feels like torture.

Agreed. If murder is a capital crime, then murdering yourself has to be a capital crime as well. There are however some cases that should get special consideration, very complicated however for Government to legislate exceptions to the rule..

DodgeFB · Feb 7, 2010

deanhills said:
Agreed. If murder is a capital crime, then murdering yourself has to be a capital crime as well. There are however some cases that should get special consideration, very complicated however for Government to legislate exceptions to the rule..

I kind of disagree on part of this. In my opinion taking someone else's life is murder. But how can I "take" my life if it is already mine?

deanhills · Feb 7, 2010

DodgeFB said:
I kind of disagree on part of this. In my opinion taking someone else's life is murder. But how can I "take" my life if it is already mine?

Maybe we should change the wording a little in that murder involves grievious bodily harm against another. So committing grievious bodily harm against oneself, would be the same thing. How can we tell other people, or even our family, not to murder other people, and then do something like this to ourselves, without a very solid justification for it?

I have total compassion with someone who has gone so far down the road in illness, such as terminal cancer, that they would like an out. If there were not any legislation to assist the person, then I am almost certain there are many other ways to give the appearance of natural causes. It is not honest, but probably the most humane all round. I'm almost certain many doctors would assist in prescribing medication, and turn the other way when they know that the cancer patient has overmedicated, or used one medication with another with predictable results. I.e. morphine taken with certain heart medication can lead to heart failure. If it is done subtly, and the person is that sick, I can't see a doctor asking for an autopsy. The person would have died from natural causes. As long as the doctor is not asked to give advice in the matter of course.

I think it should be compulsory for all people to have a "living" will, indicating their preference, if they should loose their ability to make a choice whether to live or die when they are in comas, or giving authority to someone to do it on their behalf.

Switzerland proposes tougher measures against right-to-die organizations

Similar threads