Today marks the end of the Iraq War!

David · Aug 18, 2010

7 years of hard, bloody fighting. 7 years of a quick advance, followed by a total rout of our forces and ending with a massive American human wave attack that left entire cities in ruins. After 7 years and in seeming victory for UN forces, The Iraq War is... Over.

Only time will tell if we are ridiculed as failed imperialists or conquering heroes. I hope for the latter and regardless, no more need die. This is a happy day indeed, I hope Iraq can stand on it's own now.

myp · Aug 18, 2010

We still have over 50,000 troops there, billions in commitments, and a lot of political interest and influence in the region. It is far from over unfortunately.

David · Aug 18, 2010

myp said:
We still have over 50,000 troops there, billions in commitments, and a lot of political interest and influence in the region. It is far from over unfortunately.

Oh we have interests, we had interests way back when they still had a king. But interests alone a war does not make. And the remaining 50K are advisors, engineers, translators, ect. They're not combat troops (the occasional SpecOp team notwithstanding). We have commitments and a fledgling alliance, but the war is in fact over.

We're no more at war in Iraq then we are in the Balklands.

TortoiseDream · Aug 20, 2010

myp said:
We still have over 50,000 troops there, billions in commitments, and a lot of political interest and influence in the region. It is far from over unfortunately.

That's right. But we've never been at war. First of all, war was never declared by congress, who are constitutionally the only branch of government with the power to do so. Secondly, where is the Iraqi army? It's not a war, it's an occupation.

An article: http://news.antiwar.com/2010/08/18/us-announces-second-fake-end-to-iraq-war/

myp · Aug 20, 2010

TortoiseDream said:
That's right. But we've never been at war. First of all, war was never declared by congress, who are constitutionally the only branch of government with the power to do so. Secondly, where is the Iraqi army? It's not a war, it's an occupation.
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I knew that, but don't know why I didn't say it (actually it's probably because Congress never declares war anymore.) All the more reason why this news really isn't news though.

obtuseobserver · Aug 21, 2010

TortoiseDream said:
It's not a war, it's an occupation.

Kinda like Germany, South Korea, Okinawa etc

....................

AK_ID · Aug 22, 2010

We occupy plenty of nations. Check my facts, please, but I think we have military bases in something like 60 nations, and a military presence of some sort in nearly 130.

Regardless of the hype, we're not finished in Iraq (we should have been finished there in 1991, but Bush One pulled back too soon). It wasn't politically correct then, nor is it now, to simply win a war. No, we have to try to rebuild an enemy while we're still fighting, which is insane. Meanwhile, as our last combat troops pull out, the number of civilian support staff is getting ready to double, and without being a pessimist it's not hard for me to see the potential bloodbath in the near future.

TortoiseDream · Aug 22, 2010

AK_ID said:
We occupy plenty of nations. Check my facts, please, but I think we have military bases in something like 60 nations, and a military presence of some sort in nearly 130.

That is roughly correct. America has become an empire, and our military involvement overseas is imperialist.

AK_ID · Aug 22, 2010

I'm generally happy being roughly correct -- I'll leave precision to the youngsters.

Part of our imperialism, if you want to call it that, was forced on us in the aftermath of the Second World War by our allies, as well as by some of our former enemies, who saw America as a rather generous and bottomless supply of funds and police protection. We should have dropped that role decades ago.

We could survive quite happily in today's world without attempting to build modern nations out of Third World cesspools such as Iraq, Afghanistan (and probably soon, Iran). If a nation attacks us, or sponsors an attack on us, we're fully able to flatten it without setting a boot on the ground.

David · Aug 22, 2010

AK_ID said:
I'm generally happy being roughly correct -- I'll leave precision to the youngsters.

Part of our imperialism, if you want to call it that, was forced on us in the aftermath of the Second World War by our allies, as well as by some of our former enemies, who saw America as a rather generous and bottomless supply of funds and police protection. We should have dropped that role decades ago.

We could survive quite happily in today's world without attempting to build modern nations out of Third World cesspools such as Iraq, Afghanistan (and probably soon, Iran). If a nation attacks us, or sponsors an attack on us, we're fully able to flatten it without setting a boot on the ground.

I'd just like to point out Iran isn't a 3rd World cesspool. In fact it's a 1st World powerhouse with a vary Western thinking and cosmopolitan population with a really, really stupid gov't.

myp · Aug 22, 2010

David said:
I'd just like to point out Iran isn't a 3rd World cesspool. In fact it's a 1st World powerhouse with a vary Western thinking and cosmopolitan population with a really, really stupid gov't.

The potential to be a powerhouse has been there, but the modern protectionist government has let that all go to waste. The are far from a powerhouse today with a high unemployment rate (even compared to most countries in recession right now) and rising instability.

David · Aug 22, 2010

myp said:
The potential to be a powerhouse has been there, but the modern protectionist government has let that all go to waste. The are far from a powerhouse today with a high unemployment rate (even compared to most countries in recession right now) and rising instability.

Economically, maybe. They still hold an ax over the head of Persian Gulf trade, are still a major OPEC nation, our friendly with our own allies which leaves us in an awkward position and stand to make major profits off their own economy as well as exploiting Iraqi oil and Afghan mineral deposits if they can get their economy back on track. A powerhouse by EU/US/Chinese standards? No. In comparison to every other nation on the planet? Yes, with a chance to match even the greater powers.

It's all about competent gov't.

AK_ID · Aug 22, 2010

With the exception of a few educated youngsters, Iran is as Third World in mind and economy as Somalia, David. A nation that exports less than $800 per capita per year is no powerhouse -- by that standard, Iran ranks somewhere between Namibia and the Dominican Republic. By GDP, Iran ranks somewhere between Panama and Costa Rica -- still not quite First World. Once again, feel free to fact check me -- I tend to pull facts out of nowhere, but my statements in this case aren't far from the truth.

I will agree regarding the really, really stupid government, but the same can be said of the U.S. at the moment.

David · Aug 22, 2010

AK_ID said:
With the exception of a few educated youngsters, Iran is as Third World in mind and economy as Somalia, David. A nation that exports less than $800 per capita per year is no powerhouse -- by that standard, Iran ranks somewhere between Namibia and the Dominican Republic. By GDP, Iran ranks somewhere between Panama and Costa Rica -- still not quite First World. Once again, feel free to fact check me -- I tend to pull facts out of nowhere, but my statements in this case aren't far from the truth.

I will agree regarding the really, really stupid government, but the same can be said of the U.S. at the moment.

The same could be said be said of the US for the last 1/2 century at least. :giggle: But as to the population, it's hardly "a few" educated. Remember, until the military took over after the last elections, Iran was a typical Western liberal democracy with a theocratic element. Really, sanctions, a moot-point "Supreme" Leader and a delusional president is all that's holding them back. Get rid of the theocracy, restore the Republic and have competent leadership and Iran could do great things.

obtuseobserver · Aug 25, 2010

David said:
I'd just like to point out Iran isn't a 3rd World cesspool. In fact it's a 1st World powerhouse with a vary Western thinking and cosmopolitan population with a really, really stupid gov't.

really?

they have toi import tons of gasoline

they are a totalitarian theocracy on the verge of melt down following the election problems

they are probably in the middle of large scale police activity to find, torture, imprison and kill dissenters

they rank 64th in GDP purchasing power parity

they have about as many people as Texas and California combined

71st in infant mortality rate

sounds like a wonderful place....

oh, and before you claim we toppled Mosaddeq.... we didn't. Not because we didn't want to nor because we didn't have people there. They just couldn't pull it off. Hell Moseddeq fled his home in his damn pajamas

David said:
The same could be said be said of the US for the last 1/2 century at least.

You could say it but you'd either have no clue what you were talking about or you'd be lying.

David said:
But as to the population, it's hardly "a few" educated. Remember, until the military took over after the last elections, Iran was a typical Western liberal democracy with a theocratic element.

The military clamped down because the rigged elections got screwed up and one of the lambs on the ballot refused to play ball.

All policies of the "secular" government are subject to review and objection by the Mullahs.

The Mullahs run "foundations" which claim huge segments of the national budget that is completely opaque.

To call Iran a typical western liberal democracy is to have no clue what's going on in Iran or no clue what a typical western liberal democracy is

444 days....... western liberal democracy? 444 days!!!

David said:
Really, sanctions, a moot-point "Supreme" Leader and a delusional president is all that's holding them back. Get rid of the theocracy, restore the Republic and have competent leadership and Iran could do great things.

well, that's true but unfortunately for the good and decent people of Iran that crazy President is in charge and the Mullahs have the money and the secret police.... its a totalitarian backwater holding its people hostage...

Today marks the end of the Iraq War!

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