What is Conservative?

clax · Nov 15, 2012

myp said:
I will chime in here again.

The Ron Paul brand of the GOP calls itself "conservative". Some "conservative" commentators and historians call them "traditional conservatives or paleoconservatives". The media and a lot of the public likes to call them "libertarians". The founding fathers would likely have called them "liberals" like they considered themselves. Other historians call them "classical liberals" just as they call the founding fathers. The vast majority of humans in history would have probably labeled them as some sort of progressive group, probably broadly put, "liberals". Goldwater would probably have called them real "conservatives". If I remember correctly, Reagan did call Ron Paul "conservative". Some call them "anarchists" due to the ideas of the Austrian school. Some "anarchists" (especially "left anarchists" or "social anarchists" say they are "right anarchists" or "anarchocapitalists". I can keep going...

Do you see my point? These labels don't matter.

Outside of a personal label conservative has a definition. Just like all labels, they have a definition outside of the personal use.

Wendy · Nov 15, 2012

myp said:
My take on this, Wendy, is that a goal of political education and intellectual discussion should be in making people realize how silly the labels are. Effectively weaken that "tool" for the politician in these "us vs. them" narratives.

That is a worthy goal myp, but until people are willing to accept "political chatter" & labels for what they are, until people are willing to see what politicians or their spokespeople are doing....

Wendy · Nov 15, 2012

clax said:
There is no room for those now Wendy, some people may not get to be right, your are no danger of shattering somebody's fragile sense of self.

Oh well, I can try.

myp · Nov 15, 2012

clax said:
Outside of a personal label conservative has a definition. Just like all labels, they have a definition outside of the personal use.

The political definitions are arguable. I don't know why you seem to think everything has 1 clear cut definition. The dictionary definitions are often shorthand definitions for understanding the gist of a word, not a comprehensive source.

myp · Nov 15, 2012

Wendy said:
That is a worthy goal myp, but until people are willing to accept "political chatter" & labels for what they are, until people are willing to see what politicians or their spokespeople are doing....

Then the question becomes does continuing to use and argue these labels after realizing this make sense? Does continuing to use the labels help others understand what you understand or does it do the opposite and hurt your cause? I'd argue the latter.

Wendy · Nov 15, 2012

myp said:
Then the question becomes does continuing to use and argue these labels after realizing this make sense? Does continuing to use the labels help others understand what you understand or does it do the opposite and hurt your cause? I'd argue the latter.

Wow, what a question..."does it hurt or help your cause"
When I cliam conservatism I claim it in the purest sense of "conservative".
I don't get in your business & you don't get in mine. I don't care if my neighbors best friend & house partner is a cobra so long as that cobra doesn't get in my space.
We're all labeled even if it's just what school one attends, "ivy league" or "tech school". What kind of clothing, Wall Mart or Nordstroms, where we live, Westchester or Hells Kitchen, we're labeled & I don't see anyway around it.
I will say this, we can be labeled without being pigeonholed. Pigeonholed is what I believe the gov't does. "One size does not fit all". So I believe whatever you label yourself, you, not somebody else labeling you, helps your cause.

myp · Nov 15, 2012

Wendy said:
Wow, what a question..."does it hurt or help your cause"
When I cliam conservatism I claim it in the purest sense of "conservative".
I don't get in your business & you don't get in mine. I don't care if my neighbors best friend & house partner is a cobra so long as that cobra doesn't get in my space.
We're all labeled even if it's just what school one attends, "ivy league" or "tech school". What kind of clothing, Wall Mart or Nordstroms, where we live, Westchester or Hells Kitchen, we're labeled & I don't see anyway around it.
I will say this, we can be labeled without being pigeonholed. Pigeonholed is what I believe the gov't does. "One size does not fit all". So I believe whatever you label yourself, you, not somebody else labeling you, helps your cause.

By cause I was referring to the cause of trying to make people realize monikers don't matter logically- a point that you agreed with me on (I think).

That aside, why even label yourself politically as liberal or conservative or whatever, what's the utility?

Wendy · Nov 15, 2012

myp said:
By cause I was referring to the cause of trying to make people realize monikers don't matter logically- a point that you agreed with me on (I think).

That aside, why even label yourself politically as liberal or conservative or whatever, what's the utility?

I think it makes things simpler just to say "I am a (insert your own label here

)" than to have someone else define you in their terms. I am a not a racist, I do not want granny thrown over the cliff, & I don't want states killing people, unborn babies or people on death row.
I am 73 years old, I wear jeans, drive a pick up truck, & go barefoot every chance I get. What am I? Just an old woman that has a mind of her own & does not just go along to get along.
I don't think I can say much else on this.

myp · Nov 15, 2012

It is easier to say I am a [label], but the easiest thing isn't always the best thing

clax · Nov 15, 2012

myp said:
The political definitions are arguable. I don't know why you seem to think everything has 1 clear cut definition. The dictionary definitions are often shorthand definitions for understanding the gist of a word, not a comprehensive source.

Esoteric meanings are meaningless, nobody can encompass all of them. The meaning established by the general agreement that the dictionary represents our language.

Far be it for anyone to define a word by the dictionary. I guess I am just supposed to ask you what you think out means and accept your definition as fact.

Why do you see the need to redefine everything as you see fit and condesend to everyone that questions your questionable definitions?

myp · Nov 15, 2012

Just because they aren't in the dictionary does not make them esoteric. You know A LOT of words aren't even in the dictionary right?

clax · Nov 15, 2012

myp said:
Just because they aren't in the dictionary does not make them esoteric. You know A LOT of words aren't even in the dictionary right?

Yip, conservative is though. Forget the dictionary then. There is history, there is context there is general populous that agree with the meaning too, it seems to contradict you. Your meaning only means anything to you, generally it is meaningless.

Here we go again, nobody can disagree with the almighty myp.

myp · Nov 15, 2012

clax said:
Yip, conservative is though. Forget the dictionary then. There is history, there is context there is general populous that agree with the meaning too, it seems to contradict you. Your meaning only means anything to you, generally it is meaningless.

Here we go again, nobody can disagree with the almighty myp.

You can drop the snark. You put up just as strong a position as I do

That aside, what does the dictionary say about conservatives being for small government and free markets? I am guessing nothing. Which proves my point.

Also where do you think the dictionary comes from? It isn't made of magic, but by people (or more likely teams of people). Even dictionaries are not perfect.

clax · Nov 15, 2012

myp said:
You can drop the snark. You put up just as strong a position as I do

That aside, what does the dictionary say about conservatives being for small government and free markets? I am guessing nothing. Which proves my point.

Also where do you think the dictionary comes from? It isn't made of magic, but by people (or more likely teams of people). Even dictionaries are not perfect.

I trust a dictionary better than you. Like I said forget the dictionary, we have history too. And general consensus. If all of our language has no meaning then why do we use it?

talking about snark, seems that could be addressed to you as well. But I would settle for just some respect.

myp · Nov 15, 2012

Who said the language has no meaning? I am saying there are multiple definitions to many words, that for some words there are conflicting and arguable definitions, and that the dictionary isn't the best source for comprehensive definition on any word.

I am offering you my full respect. I am not the one who keeps taking jabs (like the "almighty myp" thing)

What is Conservative?

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