Your thoughts on the Crusades?

tecoyah · Jan 12, 2013

Though polls are easily corrupted, often inaccurate, and should be taken with a massive salt dose....they do serve a purpose, particularly when they are a piece of extremely limited Data.

When taken with first hand accounts given by those who have been there, those few reporters given access, and what the internet provides the polls are more compelling to me.

Protectionist · Jan 14, 2013

RoccoR said:
David, et al,

I venture to say, the US doesn't have much of a support base in the Middle East, or Persian Gulf.

(COMMENT)

The region just wants our dollars, not us as a people, which they all despise and find repugnant.

Our reputation can't get much worse.

Most Respectfully,
R

If our reputation with them is bad, that's GOOD (a compliment)

Protectionist · Jan 14, 2013

RoccoR said:
David, et al,

You have to be very cautious about poll interpretations.

I do not get the impression that we should go out of our way to trust the Iranian.

(COMMENT)

I agree that any unilateral assault on Iranis not a good idea. It would be much more than the disaster we experienced in Iraq and are going to see in Afghanistan.

Most Respectfully

"Going to see in Afghanistan" ??? Could you clarify on that, please ?

Stonewall · Jan 14, 2013

David said:
There are 1-2 billion Muslims, most of them neutral or pro-West (hell, that even includes the Iranians). Your idea would turn them all against us and we wouldn't be dealing with a minuscule number of crazy terrorists but a full fledged army filled with righteous anger. No more car bombs and a few building getting knocked down, we'd have oil embargo, air strikes, blockaded ports and invading armies...

Edited by myp: let's keep it civil

They're not already "turned against us?"

And full fledged armies filled with righteous anger? I mean......naming Teddy Bears Mohammed causes riots. Salman Rushdie writes about Islam....and has a death sentence put on his head. Our wonderful President and Administration rushed around for three weeks after the Benghazi incident claiming some third rate movie has stirred up the 'riots' that killed our ambassador.

Seen the streets of Egypt or Libya or Palestine or Syria or Iran or Afghanistan lately? Is it just a few 'crazy terrorists?'

Best rethink that one.

Stonewall · Jan 14, 2013

clax said:
Last thing we need is more war, I agree 100%.

All we are saying...is give war a chance.

David · Jan 14, 2013

Stonewall said:
They're not already "turned against us?"

And full fledged armies filled with righteous anger? I mean......naming Teddy Bears Mohammed causes riots. Salman Rushdie writes about Islam....and has a death sentence put on his head. Our wonderful President and Administration rushed around for three weeks after the Benghazi incident claiming some third rate movie has stirred up the 'riots' that killed our ambassador.

Seen the streets of Egypt or Libya or Palestine or Syria or Iran or Afghanistan lately? Is it just a few 'crazy terrorists?'

Best rethink that one.

Most Muslims live in Europe and China and none of the things you said are happening (France being the glaring exception). Try again.

Stonewall · Jan 14, 2013

David said:
Most Muslims live in Europe and China and none of the things you said are happening (France being the glaring exception). Try again.

I think I was making the point that it's more than just a few crazy terrorists. You disagree?

myp · Jan 14, 2013

Stonewall said:
I think I was making the point that it's more than just a few crazy terrorists. You disagree?

I don't know if he does, but I sure do. It isn't even about Islam at the root- it is political.

Stonewall · Jan 14, 2013

myp said:
I don't know if he does, but I sure do. It isn't even about Islam at the root- it is political.

Oh, I think to some abroad.....to many Muslims...it is about Islam. It may be politics to us, not always the same to everyone.

myp · Jan 14, 2013

Stonewall said:
Oh, I think to some abroad.....to many Muslims...it is about Islam. It may be politics to us, not always the same to everyone.

To groups like Al Queda it is quite political.

Stonewall · Jan 14, 2013

myp said:
To groups like Al Queda it is quite political.

To jihadists, Islam can be the common denominating driver.

myp · Jan 14, 2013

Stonewall said:
To jihadists, Islam can be the common denominating driver.

Islam is often a tool used to recruit, but the goal is political. See Robert Pape's work on this.

Stonewall · Jan 14, 2013

Islam is often a tool used to recruit......it's been that way for centuries. However and for example, no other religion has inspired men into battle heedless of death....or promising everlasting life for the killing of the infidel. Westerners often mistakenly belief their separation of church and state.....or politics and religion is shared by all. Many Muslim nations integrate the two, in fact choose to do so.

myp · Jan 14, 2013

Stonewall said:
However and for example, no other religion has inspired men into battle heedless of death

Not true. Naive, young people have been convinced with various religions many, many times. As for the integration between state and religion, this isn't something unique to Islam. Look at the Vatican, Israel, or the history of Christian states like the Holy Roman Empire.

Stonewall · Jan 14, 2013

Not saying integration is unique. The Crusades themselves using religion to inspire men to take back "holy lands" when their motives were also quite political.

But no religion even compares to Islam. No other religion spread so fast and used quite the same technique in inspiring men to kill, promising honor for killing non believers. Today, it's the only religion left that takes offense if Mohammed or one if its' leaders are insulted.

myp · Jan 14, 2013

Stonewall said:
But no religion even compares to Islam. No other religion spread so fast and used quite the same technique in inspiring men to kill, promising honor for killing non believers. Today, it's the only religion left that takes offense if Mohammed or one if its' leaders are insulted.

So what if no other religion spread as fast? (although I am not sure that is true, but I don't know and frankly, I don't think it matters)

As for people using it to take advantage of others- again that is a very small people doing that and it is not representative of the religion itself or most of the people that practice it. Just like the Ku Klux Klan and Westboro Church don't represent Christians, Al Queda, etc. doesn't rep Muslims.

tecoyah · Jan 14, 2013

Stonewall said:
Not saying integration is unique. The Crusades themselves using religion to inspire men to take back "holy lands" when their motives were also quite political.

But no religion even compares to Islam. No other religion spread so fast and used quite the same technique in inspiring men to kill, promising honor for killing non believers. Today, it's the only religion left that takes offense if Mohammed or one if its' leaders are insulted.

I wish to point out a recurring issue I have noted:

It seems to me much is made of the past here, between the crusades (Christian War)...and the long standing Jihad (Islamic War).

When evolution of a society is taken into consideration, I see a direct similarity between the two...separated only by time. While I fully agree the Islamic religion retards advanced societal growth, I also note the history of the Christian advance.

The Muslim world is backwards....for now. But, it is changing along the same roads we did, we just happen to be in the middle of it.

Stonewall · Jan 14, 2013

myp said:
So what if no other religion spread as fast? (although I am not sure that is true, but I don't know and frankly, I don't think it matters)

As for people using it to take advantage of others- again that is a very small people doing that and it is not representative of the religion itself or most of the people that practice it. Just like the Ku Klux Klan and Westboro Church don't represent Christians, Al Queda, etc. doesn't rep Muslims.

The speed and process of spreading their religion was referenced when pointing out how religion is peceived differently in non western cultures. Religion dominates many aspects of their life(not a criticism) and that influence extends to politics. Western civilizations wisely separate our church and states, many others do not.

Stonewall · Jan 14, 2013

tecoyah said:
I wish to point out a recurring issue I have noted:

It seems to me much is made of the past here, between the crusades (Christian War)...and the long standing Jihad (Islamic War).

When evolution of a society is taken into consideration, I see a direct similarity between the two...separated only by time. While I fully agree the Islamic religion retards advanced societal growth, I also note the history of the Christian advance.

The Muslim world is backwards....for now. But, it is changing along the same roads we did, we just happen to be in the middle of it.

I do see some comparisons and also note the history of Christianity. In fact, just finished a great read on the campaign of a one Charles Martel. The Grandfather of Christianity, imo.

David · Jan 14, 2013

Stonewall said:
Not saying integration is unique. The Crusades themselves using religion to inspire men to take back "holy lands" when their motives were also quite political.

But no religion even compares to Islam. No other religion spread so fast and used quite the same technique in inspiring men to kill, promising honor for killing non believers. Today, it's the only religion left that takes offense if Mohammed or one if its' leaders are insulted.

Except outside Arabia and the Roman Empire, Islam was quite literally sold to the locals (and for quite a profit) Vary little of Islams rapid rise to power can be blamed on the sword, money is the real culprit (a consequence I think of the religion being founded by a businessman).

Your thoughts on the Crusades?

Similar threads