The Universal Whaling Issue

[The GMan]

One thing everyone should take away with from the argument is that we try to fit a human level type of sentient being into a whale or dolphins level of thinking and understanding. This is only going to make the whale or dolphins seem less intelligent and deemed to be not capable of being more than just mammals swimming around in the ocean.

With hunting for the trill, the great majority of people that do this only want to take a trophy of their kill and not use the animal they just killed to feed their family or another. Early humans were some of the worlds best hunters as they had to hide themselves and their scent from an animal. While doing that they had to catch and kill the animal either with a crude knife or bow and arrow. That required an immense amount of skill. Something that taking down a deer from a quarter mile away with a scoped rifle.

 

[clax]

One thing everyone should take away with from the argument is that we try to fit a human level type of sentient being into a whale or dolphins level of thinking and understanding. This is only going to make the whale or dolphins seem less intelligent and deemed to be not capable of being more than just mammals swimming around in the ocean.

With hunting for the trill, the great majority of people that do this only want to take a trophy of their kill and not use the animal they just killed to feed their family or another. Early humans were some of the worlds best hunters as they had to hide themselves and their scent from an animal. While doing that they had to catch and kill the animal either with a crude knife or bow and arrow. That required an immense amount of skill. Something that taking down a deer from a quarter mile away with a scoped rifle.

Taking down a deer from a quarter mile with a scoped rifle takes a great amount of skill. Acurate shooting isnt like the movies. You dont just point and shoot, you must rely on an incredibly finetuned set of skills. If early man had a rifle he would use it. And what of bow hunters. Or me i use a single shot muzzel loader rifle. If you think it is easy, lets go hunting and i will buy your deer meat for 10,000 dollars. You can borrow my 30.06. A trigicon 5 power scope, but one bullet sence it is so easy

 

[Cerise]

First and formost, that is a terrable argument, people know others are self aware because we communicate, hence proof. I believe whales are intellegent as are dolphins, incredibly intellegent, so are gorillas, and othe apes, but few have been able to use tools, so they dont share our intellegence, until they do, they will never be thought of as equal to man.

Whales and Dolphins communicate with sound. They dont use tools because, apart from them obviously not having hands, they don't 'need' to use them.
I wouldnt be so keen to talk of human intelligence for 'we' are the species that has damaged the natural world. No other species has polluted the seas, poisoned the land and felled massive areas of Rain Forest. We are also the only species that seeks to wipe out whole sections of our own kind based simply on what they believe about unprovable beings so perhaps it is us who should be learning from the Whales and Dolphins?

 

[Cerise]

Taking down a deer from a quarter mile with a scoped rifle takes a great amount of skill. Acurate shooting isnt like the movies. You dont just point and shoot, you must rely on an incredibly finetuned set of skills. If early man had a rifle he would use it. And what of bow hunters. Or me i use a single shot muzzel loader rifle. If you think it is easy, lets go hunting and i will buy your deer meat for 10,000 dollars. You can borrow my 30.06. A trigicon 5 power scope, but one bullet sence it is so easy

This would be wonderful if all hunters with their scopes..or without them for that matter...made a clean kill 100% of the time. They dont. Have you always made a perfect shot that killed your prey immediately in one tragic moment?
Sadly hunters miss the shot that kills but still hit the animal causing it pain and suffering.Some wounded animals run for miles and some are never tracked down by their would be killers and die a lingering death. For what? Sport? Ha!

 

[Cerise]

the deer is adapt to its environment, man is not, we have to use tools to manipulate our environment. The deer has three weapons and you think a man should have none. A deer would absolutly kill a person who attempted what you suggest, how on earth is that fair.

What would you say is a sport.

You answered it yourself...a deer is adapt in its own environment but 'man' has to alter it so from the start its not a fair situation. A deer will protect itself as you would do if attacked with intention to kill.

Sport is competition between two or more players with the aim of winning something, either a medal,trophy, money etc. Sport encompasses everything that will shortly be seen in the Olympic games for example.
If you want to win a medal or trophy through your skill with a rifle, pistol or bow then there are non living targets to shoot at. You can prove how excellent you are without killing...and often terrifying...a living thing first. ie roundels,clay pigeons and so on.

 

[ThirdTerm]

By saying whaling is wrong; you’re also saying that all hunting is wrong. The way I see it is that it's either all animals or none at all, the so called people out to stop whaling are basically just attention grabbing hypocrites not realizing how foolish their making themselves and their cause to be. Am I the only one who thinks this controversy over the collection of whales is just ridiculous?

Seven out of the thirteen great whales are considered to be endangered and hunting or trafficking endangered species is a serious crime which could carry a prison sentence of about five years. Some indigenous people are still allowed to hunt whales but industrialised countries such as Norway and Japan are obliged to abide by international law concerning protecting and preserving endangered species and it was commercial whaling which contributed to the rapid decline in whale populations.

 

[clax]

You answered it yourself...a deer is adapt in its own environment but 'man' has to alter it so from the start its not a fair situation. A deer will protect itself as you would do if attacked with intention to kill.

Sport is competition between two or more players with the aim of winning something, either a medal,trophy, money etc. Sport encompasses everything that will shortly be seen in the Olympic games for example.
If you want to win a medal or trophy through your skill with a rifle, pistol or bow then there are non living targets to shoot at. You can prove how excellent you are without killing...and often terrifying...a living thing first. ie roundels,clay pigeons and so on.

true, but what if i enjoy the sport of hunting, which is more than target practice.

games are not sports.

 

[clax]

This would be wonderful if all hunters with their scopes..or without them for that matter...made a clean kill 100% of the time. They dont. Have you always made a perfect shot that killed your prey immediately in one tragic moment?
Sadly hunters miss the shot that kills but still hit the animal causing it pain and suffering.Some wounded animals run for miles and some are never tracked down by their would be killers and die a lingering death. For what? Sport? Ha!

that happens in nature all the time. i dont get the hang up with hunting, animals die every day for our consumption, why is it so important that they not be killed by a rifle in their habitat but by a killing hammer in a cage. i understand people that dont like, that is fine they dont have to do it but why tell me i cant?

 

[clax]

Whales and Dolphins communicate with sound. They dont use tools because, apart from them obviously not having hands, they don't 'need' to use them.

chickens communicate with sound' they are equal to whales then???

and if they have no need for tools they like being harvested??

there are people who have no hands that can use tools, if they overcame that obstacle, surly a whale could if they are more intelligent than people.

i will never believe an animal that is smarter than us would allow us to kill it.

I wouldnt be so keen to talk of human intelligence for 'we' are the species that has damaged the natural world. No other species has polluted the seas, poisoned the land and felled massive areas of Rain Forest. We are also the only species that seeks to wipe out whole sections of our own kind based simply on what they believe about unprovable beings so perhaps it is us who should be learning from the Whales and Dolphins?

our world is fine, oceans are not poised, i caught a channel cat that was healthy and well. we cut down trees to build habitats, if you object to that i hope you live in a cave. there is more jungle now then there was fifty years ago, cut it down and it grows back, that is life. we have high math the ability to manipulate our environment, how dos that make us not intellegent, or bring our intelligence into question.

 

[David]

our world is fine, oceans are not poised, i caught a channel cat that was healthy and well. we cut down trees to build habitats, if you object to that i hope you live in a cave. there is more jungle now then there was fifty years ago, cut it down and it grows back, that is life. we have high math the ability to manipulate our environment, how dos that make us not intellegent, or bring our intelligence into question.

Our world is being overrun by desert, the Oceans are on the brink of mass extinction and the rain forests are disappointing at a rate of hundreds of sq. miles a day. Where the hell are you getting your information from?

 

[clax]

Our world is being overrun by desert, the Oceans are on the brink of mass extinction and the rain forests are disappointing at a rate of hundreds of sq. miles a day. Where the hell are you getting your information from?

That is not true, sence 1950 there has been 500,000 acers of forrest gained in the USA, the world isn't getting over run by deserts, what new deserts have been formed? I dont know where you get the idea that the oceans are on the brink of extinction, the higher temps in the water allows for more oxygen and therefor life flourishes.

And even if all of these tree hugger ideas were not a hoax perpitrated by so called "green energy" interests how are they caused by man? We have always hunted, fished and built dwellings, why all of the sudden are we killing the world. Sounds farfetched

 

[Cerise]

true, but what if i enjoy the sport of hunting, which is more than target practice.

games are not sports.

Ok, we need to agree to disagree then. You enjoy hunting which means tracking and killing a living thing hopefully with one clean shot and no suffering or terror involved.
Why do you need to kill something rather than prove your prowess by using a target, bearing in mind they dont have to be static ones?

 

[Cerise]

that happens in nature all the time. i dont get the hang up with hunting, animals die every day for our consumption, why is it so important that they not be killed by a rifle in their habitat but by a killing hammer in a cage. i understand people that dont like, that is fine they dont have to do it but why tell me i cant?

Yes, if people actually had to kill a cow, sheep or pig etc rather than buy it ready packed in a a supermarket then probably many would not do it.
With meat so readily available why do you feel the need to pursue a wild animal and shoot it down? Do you get delight in butchering it afterwards? Is every piece of it used?

 

[Cerise]

chickens communicate with sound' they are equal to whales then???

and if they have no need for tools they like being harvested??

there are people who have no hands that can use tools, if they overcame that obstacle, surly a whale could if they are more intelligent than people.

i will never believe an animal that is smarter than us would allow us to kill it.

our world is fine, oceans are not poised, i caught a channel cat that was healthy and well. we cut down trees to build habitats, if you object to that i hope you live in a cave. there is more jungle now then there was fifty years ago, cut it down and it grows back, that is life. we have high math the ability to manipulate our environment, how dos that make us not intellegent, or bring our intelligence into question.

Communication is communication isnt it? Obviously we can use language because we have vocal chords but sounds other than words are still communication.

I doubt there is an animal that enjoys 'being harvested'.How/why would the ability to use or not use tools make a difference to that?

I dont understand why you think a whale would need to use tools?

Please name me an animal that allows itself to be killed without fighting back or running away if it has the chance. Do you think a cow going to slaughter would do so willingly if it had a choice?

I don't know what you base your last statement on. The world is not 'fine' because if you look into it,you will find that the oceans are polluted.
We cut down trees for all kinds of reasons, not just to build a house. For example, alot of forest is cut to make room for farming. Renewable forest, mostly pine, is maintained by replanting and not leaving it to regrow itself. Removing native trees and replacing them with pine also destroys the habitat of many native animals.

 

[clax]

Yes, if people actually had to kill a cow, sheep or pig etc rather than buy it ready packed in a a supermarket then probably many would not do it.
With meat so readily available why do you feel the need to pursue a wild animal and shoot it down? Do you get delight in butchering it afterwards? Is every piece of it used?

I wouldn't say a delight, but i gain know how and respect for the amnimal that seeing a slab of pink flesh dosent allow. If people had to kill a cow a sheep or a pig, they would, they do. The meat you get from a super market was once an animal. So condoning others and not me is logical? The three people I knew that worked in slaughter houses told me they enjoied their work, it is nessacary that they do, it is a dirty job. Most slaughter houses dont use all of the animal, lungs and intrails are seldom ground into dog food. If i shoot an animal, i eat it, unless it is vermin such as a rat. I have a knife that hase a buck horn handle, it is a trophy but i use it, it reminds me that regardless of supermarkets and slaughter houses, human survival depends on us. I use it but it is a trophy, am I supposed to eat the antlers?

 

[Cerise]

I wouldn't say a delight, but i gain know how and respect for the amnimal that seeing a slab of pink flesh dosent allow. If people had to kill a cow a sheep or a pig, they would, they do. The meat you get from a super market was once an animal. So condoning others and not me is logical? The three people I knew that worked in slaughter houses told me they enjoied their work, it is nessacary that they do, it is a dirty job. Most slaughter houses dont use all of the animal, lungs and intrails are seldom ground into dog food. If i shoot an animal, i eat it, unless it is vermin such as a rat. I have a knife that hase a buck horn handle, it is a trophy but i use it, it reminds me that regardless of supermarkets and slaughter houses, human survival depends on us. I use it but it is a trophy, am I supposed to eat the antlers?

I have not and will not condone killing an animal whether or not its done by a hunter or in a slaughter house so one is not preferable to the other whichever way its looked at.
It's not necessary to eat dead animals.

 

[clax]

I have not and will not condone killing an animal whether or not its done by a hunter or in a slaughter house so one is not preferable to the other whichever way its looked at.
It's not necessary to eat dead animals.

Are you a vegitarian?

 

[Nemo]

I think that animals should certainly have rights; and it must be acknowledged that many states have laws that govern the care and treatment of animals. In this the law both confers rights and imposes duties. Ethically, if you consider whether or not animals should have rights, it would be difficult to justify our assertion of such mastery over them.

One of my favorite books about the natural world is by Henry Beston, who, I think, may have come closest to the truth about man and his place among the animal kingdom when he wrote:

"We need another and wiser and perhaps a more mystical concept of animals. Remote from universal nature, and living by complicated artifice, man in civilization surveys the creature through the glass of his knowledge and sees thereby a feather magnified and the whole image in distortion. We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate of having taken a form so far below ourselves. And therein we err, and greatly err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with extension of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren; they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendor and travail of the earth."
- Henry Beston, The Outermost House (1928)

 

[Cerise]

Are you a vegitarian?

Not strictly. I occasionally eat meat if someone has prepared a meal for us that contains it.

 

[Cerise]

I think that animals should certainly have rights; and it must be acknowledged that many states have laws that govern the care and treatment of animals. In this the law both confers rights and imposes duties. Ethically, if you consider whether or not animals should have rights, it would be difficult to justify our assertion of such mastery over them.

One of my favorite books about the natural world is by Henry Beston, who, I think, may have come closest to the truth about man and his place among the animal kingdom when he wrote:

"We need another and wiser and perhaps a more mystical concept of animals. Remote from universal nature, and living by complicated artifice, man in civilization surveys the creature through the glass of his knowledge and sees thereby a feather magnified and the whole image in distortion. We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate of having taken a form so far below ourselves. And therein we err, and greatly err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with extension of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren; they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendor and travail of the earth."
- Henry Beston, The Outermost House (1928)

Absolutely. Thankyou for quoting that.