Your thoughts on the Crusades?

[Protectionist]

How many Crusades were there 12 I think I can't remember. It was a fight for land. The land worshipped by all sides. Muslims, Jews, Christians. You have to look at the time Christian Pilgrimages were attack in Europe also due to the lack of belief. The Muslims were not the first to attack Christian Pilgrims.

Though I don't agree with Muslim doctrine you and I have discussed this before. Each crusade was for control of land.

But why ? Maybe because the land (we're talking continents, folks) was STOLEN by marauding Muslims, who not only stole the land (continents), but forced the inhabitants to submit to the Muslim ideology (masquerading as a religion). And what a surprise...when the Arabic meaning of the word "Islam" is SUBMISSION.

 

[Protectionist]

So what if no other religion spread as fast? (although I am not sure that is true, but I don't know and frankly, I don't think it matters)

As for people using it to take advantage of others- again that is a very small people doing that and it is not representative of the religion itself or most of the people that practice it. Just like the Ku Klux Klan and Westboro Church don't represent Christians, Al Queda, etc. doesn't rep Muslims.

1. It most certainly IS representitive of Islam itself (the Koran & Hadith).

"I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers." (Koran 8:12, "The Spoils," Dawood, p. 177)

"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them." (Koran 9:5; "Repentance," Dawood, p. 186)

​

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous." (Koran 9:123, "Repentance," Dawood, p. 206)



2. It doesn't matter whether a large or small number of Muslims adhere to Muslim philosohy (ie. mass genocide of non-Muslims). That might have been a factor in past centuries, but now, in the 21st century, killing technology has reached a level where millions of people can be killed by the efforts of a very small group of killers. In fact, hundreds of thousands in a high-population density city like New York, could be killed by just one person with a suitcase nuclear bomb, or a larger bomb hidden in a truck.

Millions more could be killed by just one person with a biological weapon that could spread across America from person to person, state to state, like the flu.

What makes Islamic jihad so dangerous, is the levels of technology of today, combined with the basic mind set of Muslim madness (to kill as many "infidels" as possible).

http://www.politicalfray.com/showthread.php?p=39329#post39329

 

[Stonewall]

But the critical part of it is not changing >> the Koran. When Christianity changed (the Reformation), changes were made to the original (Catholic) Christianity. As for the Koran, in all its 1400 years, not one word of it has been changed.

Proving differences in flexability. Christianity underwent Reformations and redefinitions, to question the Koran was always a death sentence. Another difference between the two religions.

Look today...there are movies suggesting Jesus was married and even had children. Compare that to the death sentence given to a school teacher abroad who dared to allow the children in her class to name the class Teddy Bear, Mohammed.

Thanks for helping me make my point, Protectionist.

 

[tecoyah]

Proving differences in flexability. Christianity underwent Reformations and redefinitions, to question the Koran was always a death sentence. Another difference between the two religions.

Look today...there are movies suggesting Jesus was married and even had children. Compare that to the death sentence given to a school teacher abroad who dared to allow the children in her class to name the class Teddy Bear, Mohammed.

Thanks for helping me make my point, Protectionist.

While I agree that Christianity is now a fer less brutal religion than it once was...I would also like to point out the similarities taking place in Islam right now. I would note that the Islamic world has been backwards and denied cultural changes due to what seems to be the failure to adapt by the leaders in the faith...they seem to be grasping onto the past rather than allowing a future.

I certainly find aspects of the faith somewhat pathetic, in the way women are treated, violence accepted, and advancement frowned upon....but consider Christianity a few centuries ago.

Religion stifles human development and forward progress regardless of the God,

 

[clax]

While I agree that Christianity is now a fer less brutal religion than it once was...I would also like to point out the similarities taking place in Islam right now. I would note that the Islamic world has been backwards and denied cultural changes due to what seems to be the failure to adapt by the leaders in the faith...they seem to be grasping onto the past rather than allowing a future.

I certainly find aspects of the faith somewhat pathetic, in the way women are treated, violence accepted, and advancement frowned upon....but consider Christianity a few centuries ago.

Religion stifles human development and forward progress regardless of the God,

I would go farther and say humanity stifles human development regardless of religion.

this happens in secular cultures also.

 

[tecoyah]

I would go farther and say humanity stifles human development regardless of religion.

this happens in secular cultures also.

True..yet the discussion here is about religion, which directed the focus of my reply

 

[clax]

True..yet the discussion here is about religion, which directed the focus of my reply

well blaming religion for something that is really the fault of humanity, is a bit insulting to religion. and this is the type of thing I take exeption to.

but I understand that you meant people use religion much like any other dogma to justify injustices

 

[tecoyah]

well blaming religion for something that is really the fault of humanity, is a bit insulting to religion. and this is the type of thing I take exeption to.

but I understand that you meant people use religion much like any other dogma to justify injustices

I will apologize for offending your sensibilities...but not for my reply, as it is my valid opinion.

 

[clax]

I will apologize for offending your sensibilities...but not for my reply, as it is my valid opinion.

you don't offend me. but such a polarizing comment will get a similar reaction.

 

[Stonewall]

While I agree that Christianity is now a fer less brutal religion than it once was...I would also like to point out the similarities taking place in Islam right now. I would note that the Islamic world has been backwards and denied cultural changes due to what seems to be the failure to adapt by the leaders in the faith...they seem to be grasping onto the past rather than allowing a future.

I certainly find aspects of the faith somewhat pathetic, in the way women are treated, violence accepted, and advancement frowned upon....but consider Christianity a few centuries ago.

Religion stifles human development and forward progress regardless of the God,

Actually, if you'd read the history of the world, the Christian faith indeed was the foundation of the society that became the nation states of Europe and the most prosperous and free nations on earth. Religion in some cases stifles forward movement but given the most atrocious regimes in history like Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia and Ghenghis Khan or Attila weren't religiously oriented, your statement isn't accurate.

 

[Mermaid]

Actually, if you'd read the history of the world, the Christian faith indeed was the foundation of the society that became the nation states of Europe and the most prosperous and free nations on earth. Religion in some cases stifles forward movement but given the most atrocious regimes in history like Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia and Ghenghis Khan or Attila weren't religiously oriented, your statement isn't accurate.

atilla ? and what kind of regime is that ??

when did atila live and when did hitler live ?

that was neither atilla nor cengizhan who colonized the rest of the world ,destroyed the culturel heritage and national identity of these nations and enslaved blacks to get rich

colonization is not our fault .)

it is disappointing to see people who still think turks are barbarian..

and even some atheists can support the crusaders.

sorry but anatolia has been a turkish territory please get over it.

 

[David]

atilla ? and what kind of regime is that ??

when did atila live and when did hitler live ?

that was neither atilla nor cengizhan who colonized the rest of the world ,destroyed the culturel heritage and national identity of these nations and enslaved blacks to get rich

colonization is not our fault .)

it is disappointing to see people who still think turks are barbarian..

and even some atheists can support the crusaders.

sorry but anatolia has been a turkish territory please get over it.

The Romans defined the West, indeed WERE the West. The Turks put an end to them and it leaves a sour taste in a lot of Westerners' mouths.

 

[Cerise]

There are 1-2 billion Muslims, most of them neutral or pro-West (hell, that even includes the Iranians). Your idea would turn them all against us and we wouldn't be dealing with a minuscule number of crazy terrorists but a full fledged army filled with righteous anger. No more car bombs and a few building getting knocked down, we'd have oil embargo, air strikes, blockaded ports and invading armies...

Edited by myp: let's keep it civil

Just give it time.

 

[RoccoR]

Mermaid, et al,

I don't think this is a generally held impression. In fact, the reputation of Turkey is quite the opposite.

it is disappointing to see people who still think turks are barbarian..

(COMMENT)

It is my opinion that Turkey is the most successful of any of the countries between the Black Sea and the Red Sea, and from the Mediterranean Sea to the Arabian Sea. One could say that Mustafa Kemal (Atatürk) was one of the greatest post-WWII statesmen to emerge from the conflict and successfully build a republic, Muslim - but secular, and generally much more tolerate and amenable of any other nation bounded by those seas.

Granted, I've only been to Ankara, Istanbul, Izmir, and Incirlik, and that was many years ago, but from what I experienced and remember, were all much more positive than any other nation in the entire region. And from what I've heard since, the Turks have every reason to be proud of their country, people and culture; much more so than any other nation south of them in the region.

Just My Thought,
R

 

[Stonewall]

atilla ? and what kind of regime is that ??

when did atila live and when did hitler live ?

that was neither atilla nor cengizhan who colonized the rest of the world ,destroyed the culturel heritage and national identity of these nations and enslaved blacks to get rich

colonization is not our fault .)

it is disappointing to see people who still think turks are barbarian..

and even some atheists can support the crusaders.

sorry but anatolia has been a turkish territory please get over it.

Colonization isn't your fault but then neither is enlightenment. And if you're assigning fault, what would you fault your ancestry with?<and that's a question mark right there, thanks.

 

[tecoyah]

Colonization isn't your fault but then neither is enlightenment. And if you're assigning fault, what would you fault your ancestry with?<and that's a question mark right there, thanks.

I feel it important to say my piece....for what it is worth.

Just as I do not feel guilty for slavery, Native American slaughter, dead Englishmen, or whatever my great great great grandfather did (He was Aaron Burr by the way), expecting someone born in Turkey to feel guilty about ****** is simply silly.

You are free to dislike, hate. rebel against and complain about whoever you want to waste time on...but do it well.

 

[Stonewall]

atilla ? and what kind of regime is that?

A Godless one.

when did atila live and when did hitler live ?

My examples must span history to be accurate, yes?

that was neither atilla nor cengizhan who colonized the rest of the world ,destroyed the culturel heritage and national identity of these nations and enslaved blacks to get rich

Arab nations and empires enslaves blacks and many more, are you taking credit for your ancestry as well?

colonization is not our fault .)

What is? And you did colonize, would you like me to find you a link?

it is disappointing to see people who still think turks are barbarian..

So.....Faulting others for 'colonization' and accusing of 'destroying cultural heritage' is this disappointing "still think" you're speaking to?

and even some atheists can support the crusaders.

Who supported Islams trek across Africa and into western Europe?

sorry but anatolia has been a turkish territory please get over it.

To the victor go the spoils, Sir.

 

[Stonewall]

I feel it important to say my piece....for what it is worth.

Just as I do not feel guilty for slavery, Native American slaughter, dead Englishmen, or whatever my great great great grandfather did (He was Aaron Burr by the way), expecting someone born in Turkey to feel guilty about ****** is simply silly.

You are free to dislike, hate. rebel against and complain about whoever you want to waste time on...but do it well.

No one expects anyone born in Turkey to feel guilty anymore than we expect you to take blame for how your ggg Grandfather lived. And as you don't take blame, neither can you take credit so your ancestry here...as is anyone's, I find irrelevant to our topic.

I stated fact. Islam was unequalied in it's expansion, the religion enjoyed a meteoric rise following the death of Mohammed. Anyone can read the same history. Other religions just as responsible for slaughter, other nations just as reponsible as ours, mankind regardless of race, religion, or motive have killed each other from day one.

Islam as an organized religion....spread by the sword. Was stopped in its' tracks in eastern europe at Constantinople(I'll look the years of the massive battles up later, I believe 714 and 732) and in western Europe by The Franks. Charles Martel to be exact. Who grandfathered a man name Charlemagne and Christianity was left to thrive over the next centuries forming into what we today know as the European nation states. Look this up, I'm not casting guilt, this is called history.

 

[Stonewall]

Mermaid, et al,

I don't think this is a generally held impression. In fact, the reputation of Turkey is quite the opposite.


(COMMENT)

It is my opinion that Turkey is the most successful of any of the countries between the Black Sea and the Red Sea, and from the Mediterranean Sea to the Arabian Sea. One could say that Mustafa Kemal (Atatürk) was one of the greatest post-WWII statesmen to emerge from the conflict and successfully build a republic, Muslim - but secular, and generally much more tolerate and amenable of any other nation bounded by those seas.

Granted, I've only been to Ankara, Istanbul, Izmir, and Incirlik, and that was many years ago, but from what I experienced and remember, were all much more positive than any other nation in the entire region. And from what I've heard since, the Turks have every reason to be proud of their country, people and culture; much more so than any other nation south of them in the region.

Just My Thought,
R

Absolutely, and Turkey today an important ally to my country, the United States. It didn't start out too cozy though with the Arab world. Without British protection after declaring independence, Thomas Jefferson when he became President was faced with a $225,000 and $25,000/year tribute to Tripoli for passage of trade ships for example. Jefferson refused, Tripoli declared war on the Unites States.

and we now have a shores of Tripoli statement in our Marine Corp hymn.

 

[David]

No one expects anyone born in Turkey to feel guilty anymore than we expect you to take blame for how your ggg Grandfather lived. And as you don't take blame, neither can you take credit so your ancestry here...as is anyone's, I find irrelevant to our topic.

I stated fact. Islam was unequalied in it's expansion, the religion enjoyed a meteoric rise following the death of Mohammed. Anyone can read the same history. Other religions just as responsible for slaughter, other nations just as reponsible as ours, mankind regardless of race, religion, or motive have killed each other from day one.

Islam as an organized religion....spread by the sword. Was stopped in its' tracks in eastern europe at Constantinople(I'll look the years of the massive battles up later, I believe 714 and 732) and in western Europe by The Franks. Charles Martel to be exact. Who grandfathered a man name Charlemagne and Christianity was left to thrive over the next centuries forming into what we today know as the European nation states. Look this up, I'm not casting guilt, this is called history.

You've yet to explain how Islam got into the Orient (or the Americas for that matter) with no army and yet was 'spread by the sword'.