Free Will and Religion

Delta · Dec 15, 2009

I was watching some clips from the movie Waking Life and an interesting topic came up.

The reward and punishment system in religion is based on free will. However, if god is omniscient, and knows everything that will happen... then our life is predetermined. We're simply carrying out the actions that god already knows will happen. Any choices we make are really just illusions, as god already knows the path we'll follow. So it would appear the system is flawed.

The conversation in the movie is more about science though. Here's the link if you'd like to read it, and at the bottom of the page is a link to the youtube clip if you'd rather listen:

http://www.twine.com/item/12xttfrv2...cs-waking-life-excerpt-youtube-via-friendfeed

jfla · Dec 18, 2009

I refuse to recognize, let alone worship, any god that would create somebody with the intention of letting them die and go to Hell without having any say in the matter.

But an omniscient god would have to know what is going to happen in order to be omniscient- and someone that is not omniscient could hardly be considered to be a god.

So what I propose is a God that knows what His created beings are going to do before they do it but who then chooses to not interfere apart from laying out the consequences for each possible action those created beings could take.

Dirk · Dec 18, 2009

jfla said:
But an omniscient god would have to know what is going to happen in order to be omniscient- and someone that is not omniscient could hardly be considered to be a god.

On the contrary. It is only the Judeo-Christian God that is omnipotent, omniscient and omni-benevolent. And all three could be argued against, using the bible as judge.

Personally, i'm an atheist. But i can't imagine that someone knowing what will happen will impact on an individual's decision? For example, say i "knew" that you deciding to stay at home meant you were there to receive a phone call from a mate, offering to get a pint down the pub, and if you decide to get milk now, you'll miss the call and never go to the pub. Do you still have free will? Yeah, sure you do. What's more, you personally, have no idea about the phone call. Additionally, I'm not about to tell you about it or direct you with my unlimited power either way. However, i do know you will choose to get milk tomorrow.

So basically, yeah, i agree there are choices - any omniscient being, if any were to exist, would simply know the conequences the choices will have and which one we will take. It's not necessarily controlling your choices - there are other verses in the bible that imply predetermination.

:giggle:

jfla · Dec 19, 2009

Dirk said:
On the contrary. It is only the Judeo-Christian God that is omnipotent, omniscient and omni-benevolent.

I am not talking about how various cultures or religions define their gods in the past or the present. I am talking about objective criteria for determining when a being is God.

And all three could be argued against, using the bible as judge.

Care to elaborate?

Personally, i'm an atheist. But i can't imagine that someone knowing what will happen will impact on an individual's decision? For example, say i "knew" that you deciding to stay at home meant you were there to receive a phone call from a mate, offering to get a pint down the pub, and if you decide to get milk now, you'll miss the call and never go to the pub. Do you still have free will?

This would depend on whether or not the person exercising the free will has all of the information he needs to make a decision about what to do. In my view anyone who has not had an opportunity to hear the Gospel of Christ before they die will be given that opportunity after they die so they then can decide whether or not they want to accept Christ as their savior before they have to face God?s judgment and subsequent eternal punishment in Hell. And knowing the consequences does not guarantee that a person will choose to follow God- Adam and Eve knew the consequences of disobeying God and they disobeyed Him anyway- it was their choice even if God already knew what their choice would be.

there are other verses in the bible that imply predetermination.

For everyone, or simply for people whom God knew would eventually choose to do His bidding?

Dirk · Dec 19, 2009

jfla said:
I am not talking about how various cultures or religions define their gods in the past or the present. I am talking about objective criteria for determining when a being is God.

So am i. I'm saying that there aren't any, since different cultures' perceptions of God are often entirely diferent. For example, take Zeus. He wasn't omniscient, he was vastly more powerful than humans - but far from omnipotent, and he was just about anything but omnibenevolent.

Care to elaborate?

Ah, i'm staying at a friend's in Glasgow. When i get home, i'll have free access to a bible.

This would depend on whether or not the person exercising the free will has all of the information he needs to make a decision about what to do. In my view anyone who has not had an opportunity to hear the Gospel of Christ before they die will be given that opportunity after they die so they then can decide whether or not they want to accept Christ as their savior before they have to face God?s judgment and subsequent eternal punishment in Hell.

I hope there's no afterlife at all. When i die, i'd rather be gone for good - another life would probably annoy me. Anyways, if you're right (which i personally doubt), it's apparently eternal torture for me.

And knowing the consequences does not guarantee that a person will choose to follow God- Adam and Eve knew the consequences of disobeying God and they disobeyed Him anyway- it was their choice even if God already knew what their choice would be.

I agree. Though i see the bible more as sci-fi, than a serious representation. It's just too far-fetched.

For everyone, or simply for people whom God knew would eventually choose to do His bidding?

There's a book (i forget what it's called), that explains that every single part of your life is planned for you by God. It cites the bible. And i'm annoyed right now, since i've forgotten the name of the book.

David · Dec 21, 2009

Free will is against the laws of physics.

Knowledge of every particle in the universe + knowledge of every particle's speed + knowledge of every particle's direction = knowledge of every thing that did, is and will happen from the Big Bang to the Big Void.

But the universe has a since of humor. The better you calculate any of the 3 parts of the above equation, the less accurate you calculations for the other 2. Know the exact location of every particle? Good luck even starting to think about their speed.

Thus everything is predetermined and has been since the Big Bang. We just can't know and we still get to chose our actions, even if that choice is already made, the butterfly long before having flapped it's wings, causing the particles that make up our brain to move in such a way to result in our thinking the way we do.

jfla · Dec 23, 2009

David said:
Free will is against the laws of physics.

Knowledge of every particle in the universe + knowledge of every particle's speed + knowledge of every particle's direction = knowledge of every thing that did, is and will happen from the Big Bang to the Big Void.

But the universe has a since of humor. The better you calculate any of the 3 parts of the above equation, the less accurate you calculations for the other 2. Know the exact location of every particle? Good luck even starting to think about their speed.

Thus everything is predetermined and has been since the Big Bang. We just can't know and we still get to chose our actions, even if that choice is already made, the butterfly long before having flapped it's wings, causing the particles that make up our brain to move in such a way to result in our thinking the way we do.

The Lord God is not named Heisenberg. He is not bound by His creation.

David · Dec 23, 2009

jfla said:
The Lord God is not named Heisenberg. He is not bound by His creation.

You realize we're saying the same thing, yes? I'm just being scientific.

jfla · Dec 24, 2009

David said:
You realize we're saying the same thing, yes? I'm just being scientific.

I have a degree in biology so I am well versed in science matters. But you cannot make God bound by the physical realm without denying Him His Divine status as a Supreme Being.

David McHenry · Dec 24, 2009

Then whats the point of life? If its all predetermined, why not just give up and see what happens, or do something you usually don't do? Do you still think that was all predetermined to play out like that?

Personally I refuse to believe such a thing and I spreading a belief like that will only breed more ignorance and excuses in the world, and no one would be responsible for anything they do.

jfla · Dec 24, 2009

David McHenry said:
Then whats the point of life? If its all predetermined, why not just give up and see what happens, or do something you usually don't do? Do you still think that was all predetermined to play out like that?

Personally I refuse to believe such a thing and I spreading a belief like that will only breed more ignorance and excuses in the world, and no one would be responsible for anything they do.

Then how do you explain evil in the world? If humans are just a product of nature and have no creator to answer to, what makes humans do bad things?

David · Dec 25, 2009

jfla said:
I have a degree in biology so I am well versed in science matters. But you cannot make God bound by the physical realm without denying Him His Divine status as a Supreme Being.

And if God set the laws, how is he bound by them? Is he simply not making the rest of us live by his own way?

Dirk · Dec 25, 2009

David McHenry said:
Then whats the point of life? If its all predetermined, why not just give up and see what happens, or do something you usually don't do? Do you still think that was all predetermined to play out like that?

Well, we are just about entirely subjective to our conditions, environment and experience.

Personally I refuse to believe such a thing and I spreading a belief like that will only breed more ignorance and excuses in the world, and no one would be responsible for anything they do.

I agree that we should always be held responsible for our own actions. They are usually due to our own opinions, thought patterns etc.

jfla said:
Then how do you explain evil in the world? If humans are just a product of nature and have no creator to answer to, what makes humans do bad things?

Well, a lot of people think they have a creator to answer to. Most people differ in their perceptions of him/her/it/them.

Dirk · Dec 25, 2009

Presuming on the existence of the Judeo-Christian God, if the multiverse was a country, Jehovah would be a dictator.

jfla · Dec 25, 2009

David said:
And if God set the laws, how is he bound by them? Is he simply not making the rest of us live by his own way?

When did I say anything about God being bound by the laws of His physical creation?

David · Dec 29, 2009

jfla said:
When did I say anything about God being bound by the laws of His physical creation?

Well I'm a proponent of the idea that god created the universe, set the laws of physics so any key players (angles, humans, religiously relevant aliens we have no idea exist, ect) would be created and walked away to let the universe do it's thing. Occasionally he intervenes to answer a prayer or to offer guidance.

alexmike · May 23, 2010

I believe God has not pre planned our free will. He has given it to us and that can be seen in several places in the Bible, for example when Moses spoke with God several times.
God understands human nature and knows what man can do, but there is a certain part of man that still has his own free will and that is the very core.

Dirk · May 23, 2010

alexmike said:
I believe God has not pre planned our free will. He has given it to us and that can be seen in several places in the Bible, for example when Moses spoke with God several times.
God understands human nature and knows what man can do, but there is a certain part of man that still has his own free will and that is the very core.

Can I just point out, that was part of the bit you lot stole? :giggle:

From the Tanakh?

Remember, the bible, like the Tanakh, is a canon of books.

As a random bit of information, the books of Moses are known as the Torah.

connermt · Aug 5, 2010

jfla said:
I refuse to recognize, let alone worship, any god that would create somebody with the intention of letting them die and go to Hell without having any say in the matter.

But an omniscient god would have to know what is going to happen in order to be omniscient- and someone that is not omniscient could hardly be considered to be a god.

So what I propose is a God that knows what His created beings are going to do before they do it but who then chooses to not interfere apart from laying out the consequences for each possible action those created beings could take.

Hi, I'm new here & I wanted to comment:
I would agree that any being (god or no) that's correctly called all knowing would tend to be all knowing would have to know the outcomes of all events past, present and future. Like you said, if it doesn't, then it's not all knowing.
Which is one reason I don't believe in that type of god myself

obtuseobserver · Aug 5, 2010

Delta said:
I was watching some clips from the movie Waking Life and an interesting topic came up.

The reward and punishment system in religion is based on free will. However, if god is omniscient, and knows everything that will happen... then our life is predetermined. We're simply carrying out the actions that god already knows will happen. Any choices we make are really just illusions, as god already knows the path we'll follow. So it would appear the system is flawed.

The conversation in the movie is more about science though. Here's the link if you'd like to read it, and at the bottom of the page is a link to the youtube clip if you'd rather listen:

http://www.twine.com/item/12xttfrv2...cs-waking-life-excerpt-youtube-via-friendfeed

This a varient of what is called "the problem of evil" and is older than dirt... though with a scientific bent. There are lots of fascinating bits of evidence suggesting free will does not exist. For example, the release of certain substances in the brain to activate a response to stimulus have been show to occur prior to our awareness of the need to react. We beging the process of reacting prior to knowing we need to. The most fascinating theory to explain this, imo, is that we live a fraction of a second in the past but our mind doesn't.

Check out Leibniz Theodicy

jfla said:
Then how do you explain evil in the world? If humans are just a product of nature and have no creator to answer to, what makes humans do bad things?

Leibniz... Theodicy

Free Will and Religion

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