Is Islam a Religion

Esperahol · Dec 28, 2012

Protectionist said:
FALSE! If you're referring to the Christian bible. The vile things I listed which are advocated in the koran are not advocated in the Christian bible.

Yes - yes they are. Last I checked there was a this thing called the Old Testament. In the Old Testament we have - whole sale slaughter of non-Israelis on pain of one's entire family being murdered for non-complience. This is understandable considering: Jeremiah 48:10 declares "A curse on him who is lax in doing the Lord's work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!" Really Genocide was very popular in the Old Testament:
Exodus 32:27-28
Numbers 31:17
Deuteronomy 7:1
Joshua 6:21-24
Judges 20:42-48
Samuel 15:1-8 (which is especially cold since they are suffering on behalf of their ancestors)
Hosea 13:16 (notable for the mention of murdering pregnant women).

Rape/Disregard for Women/Slavery
Judges 21:10 - 24NLT (notable for kidnapping/false imprisonment/and a complete lack of regard for the rights of women)
Numbers 31:7-18NLT (Blame the women, kill the male children, and rape the little girls (so also pedophilia))
Deuteronomy 20:10 - 14 (slavery or death for men, slavery for all the rest)
Deuteronomy 22:28 -29 (marry your rapist)
Deuteronomy 22:23 - 24 (rape victims should die if they're too scared to scream)
Deuteronomy 21:10 -14 (forcible marriage if a pretty captive)
Judges 5:30 (every soldier gets a wench or two)
Exodus 21"7 -11 (Daughters sold as sex slaves)

And it goes on... right into the New Testament. Jesus made it clear that His coming wasn't to erase the teaching of His father (Matthew 5:17). That includes slavery (1 Timothy 6:1-2 and Ephesians 6:5)

Protectionist · Dec 28, 2012

David said:
The 'Christian Bible' (What other kind is there?) tells Christians to burn witches, stone gays (only gays, lesbians are cool apparently) and adulterers, not eat pork, not where mixed fabrics, etc. And don't pull the 'OT doesn't count' BS, it's 1/2 the bible, most of the stuff Christians condemn would be acceptable if the OT got thrown out as it's prohibitions are the source of their moral outrage and Jesus flat out said he was all for the Law of Moses (aka Torah/OT) and had no intention of changing it.

1. There is the Jewish bible >> the Old Testament (and very different).

2. And don't try to pull that OT is the New Testament nonsense on me. They have 2 different names. Know why ? Because they're DIFFERENT. Get it ?

Protectionist · Dec 28, 2012

Esperahol said:
Yes - yes they are. Last I checked there was a this thing called the Old Testament. In the Old Testament we have - whole sale slaughter of non-Israelis on pain of one's entire family being murdered for non-complience. This is understandable considering: Jeremiah 48:10 declares "A curse on him who is lax in doing the Lord's work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!" Really Genocide was very popular in the Old Testament:
Exodus 32:27-28
Numbers 31:17
Deuteronomy 7:1
Joshua 6:21-24
Judges 20:42-48
Samuel 15:1-8 (which is especially cold since they are suffering on behalf of their ancestors)
Hosea 13:16 (notable for the mention of murdering pregnant women).

Rape/Disregard for Women/Slavery
Judges 21:10 - 24NLT (notable for kidnapping/false imprisonment/and a complete lack of regard for the rights of women)
Numbers 31:7-18NLT (Blame the women, kill the male children, and rape the little girls (so also pedophilia))
Deuteronomy 20:10 - 14 (slavery or death for men, slavery for all the rest)
Deuteronomy 22:28 -29 (marry your rapist)
Deuteronomy 22:23 - 24 (rape victims should die if they're too scared to scream)
Deuteronomy 21:10 -14 (forcible marriage if a pretty captive)
Judges 5:30 (every soldier gets a wench or two)
Exodus 21"7 -11 (Daughters sold as sex slaves)

And it goes on... right into the New Testament. Jesus made it clear that His coming wasn't to erase the teaching of His father (Matthew 5:17). That includes slavery (1 Timothy 6:1-2 and Ephesians 6:5)

NO THEY'RE NOT. This junk is not in the New Testament, and I've been listening to this idiotic talking point for 10 years now. For God's sake, come up with something new. Your talking point was dead years ago.
Besides, you're way OFF TOPIC. Islam is the topic, not Christianity. Want to talk about Christianity ? Hit the New Thread button.

Also, to consider. Many Christians do not even read the Bible (which was written by a next generation of followers of Christ 70-100 years after Christ died. The words of Christ himself are all that matter to many Christians, and you want to show me where Jesus advocated slavery ? Where he advocated rape ? Where he advocated pedophilia ? Or wife-beating ? Or any of the other vile behaviors advocated in the Koran ?
Please stop talking stupid, OK ? Thank you.

Protectionist · Dec 28, 2012

From this point on, posters, please confine your comments to the TOPIC >> Islam, and whether it should be regarded a religion or not.

myp · Dec 28, 2012

Protectionist said:
From this point on, posters, please confine your comments to the TOPIC >> Islam, and whether it should be regarded a religion or not.

This sort of discussion tends to go into tangents. That aside, applying your argument to other religions and religious texts to prove a point isn't really a tangent to begin with.

David · Dec 28, 2012

Protectionist said:
1. There is the Jewish bible >> the Old Testament (and very different).

2. And don't try to pull that OT is the New Testament nonsense on me. They have 2 different names. Know why ? Because they're DIFFERENT. Get it ?

The Bible is the Torah and Gospels together. Without the Gospels you have the Torah, without the Torah you have the Gospels but you need both to have the Bible.

I'm not going to bother repeating my other points, I'll leave it to you to respond to them or coincide.

Protectionist · Dec 28, 2012

David said:
The Bible is the Torah and Gospels together. Without the Gospels you have the Torah, without the Torah you have the Gospels but you need both to have the Bible.

I'm not going to bother repeating my other points, I'll leave it to you to respond to them or coincide.

As I said, the Old Testament is one bible. The New Testament is another. They are 2 separate and quite distinct entities.

PS - the thread is about ISLAM.

clax · Dec 28, 2012

Protectionist said:
As I said, the Old Testament is one bible. The New Testament is another. They are 2 separate and quite distinct entities.

PS - the thread is about ISLAM.

No the Bible is comprised of an old and new testament, in three new testament there is a NW covenant we are told we don't have to abide by Jewish law, meaning the rules about eating and working on the sabbath. They are not two Bibles.

David · Dec 28, 2012

clax said:
No the Bible is comprised of an old and new testament, in three new testament there is a NW covenant we are told we don't have to abide by Jewish law, meaning the rules about eating and working on the sabbath. They are not two Bibles.

I hate the 'New Covenant' BS. The man stated in no uncertain terms that his mission was to purge heresy and restore orthodox law. The New Covenant wasn't actually new but a renewal. You have to consider everything Jesus said in the context of restoring the Kingdom of Israel under the decedents of King David (who were alive and well at the time).

The OT is still valid, the idea that it isn't is due to the fact that Gentiles became the majority of the Christian population (Gentiles have different customs obviously) and because a lot of what's in the OT is pretty uncivilized even by Medieval standards. It's total BS and the facade collapses the moment you touch on things like homosexuality or the Commandments which Christians don't have cultural issues with.

clax · Dec 28, 2012

David said:
I hate the 'New Covenant' BS. The man stated in no uncertain terms that his mission was to purge heresy and restore orthodox law. The New Covenant wasn't actually new but a renewal. You have to consider everything Jesus said in the context of restoring the Kingdom of Israel under the decedents of King David (who were alive and well at the time).

The "renewal" isn't a renewal, it is an altering, look at Jesus's words on the ten commandments. Ot Sid it was a sin to do them, but Christ (who is God) said just thinking about them is just as much of a sin. But beside that, Christ/God offered his followers company with himself, it is through Christ alone that you enter the kingdom of heaven. Jews that follow Christ are Christian, gentiles that follow Christ are Christian.

David said:
I
The OT is still valid, the idea that it isn't is due to the fact that Gentiles became the majority of the Christian population (Gentiles have different customs obviously) and because a lot of what's in the OT is pretty uncivilized even by Medieval standards. It's total BS and the facade collapses the moment you touch on things like homosexuality or the Commandments which Christians don't have cultural issues with.

I dint think many Christians world say that the old testament isn't valid, frankly they say otherwise by including it in the Bible. I never said it was invalid, it is simply the Olds covenant, meaning God himself (Christ) said it isn't necessary to follow the stricter Jewish law. Being out after sundown, wearing the traditional Hebrew clothing, praying traditional Hebrew prayers. And so on. The renewal is the new covenant. He didn't come here to say keep doing the same thing, hence the new testament.

Protectionist · Dec 28, 2012

clax said:
No the Bible is comprised of an old and new testament, in three new testament there is a NW covenant we are told we don't have to abide by Jewish law, meaning the rules about eating and working on the sabbath. They are not two Bibles.

Go into a Catholic Church and you'll find the New Testament. Bet you won't find the Old Testament there. I'm not really a bible person anyway. And again, the thread is about ISLAM. Please stay on topic.

Protectionist · Dec 28, 2012

david said:
i hate the 'new covenant' bs. The man stated in no uncertain terms that his mission was to purge heresy and restore orthodox law. The new covenant wasn't actually new but a renewal. You have to consider everything jesus said in the context of restoring the kingdom of israel under the decedents of king david (who were alive and well at the time).

The ot is still valid, the idea that it isn't is due to the fact that gentiles became the majority of the christian population (gentiles have different customs obviously) and because a lot of what's in the ot is pretty uncivilized even by medieval standards. It's total bs and the facade collapses the moment you touch on things like homosexuality or the commandments which christians don't have cultural issues with.

off topic!

Protectionist · Dec 28, 2012

clax said:
The "renewal" isn't a renewal, it is an altering, look at Jesus's words on the ten commandments. Ot Sid it was a sin to do them, but Christ (who is God) said just thinking about them is just as much of a sin. But beside that, Christ/God offered his followers company with himself, it is through Christ alone that you enter the kingdom of heaven. Jews that follow Christ are Christian, gentiles that follow Christ are Christian.

I dint think many Christians world say that the old testament isn't valid, frankly they say otherwise by including it in the Bible. I never said it was invalid, it is simply the Olds covenant, meaning God himself (Christ) said it isn't necessary to follow the stricter Jewish law. Being out after sundown, wearing the traditional Hebrew clothing, praying traditional Hebrew prayers. And so on. The renewal is the new covenant. He didn't come here to say keep doing the same thing, hence the new testament.

That's great. So now that we got all that, you got any thoughts about whether Islam is a religion or not ? (and why)

clax · Dec 28, 2012

Protectionist said:
That's great. So now that we got all that, you got any thoughts about whether Islam is a religion or not ? (and why)

Islam is a religion because it fits all the criteria to be.

Religion- noun- a worship of a super human or supreme deity, a God or gods.

Def 2- details of a belief as tought or discussed.

So yes it is a religion.

Islam believes in a God called Allah, which is another language meaning the word God, there are details of their beliefs that are tought or discussed that is what they do in mosques.

I don't really see your confusion.

Protectionist · Dec 28, 2012

clax said:
Islam is a religion because it fits all the criteria to be.

Religion- noun- a worship of a super human or supreme deity, a God or gods.

Def 2- details of a belief as tought or discussed.

So yes it is a religion.

Islam believes in a God called Allah, which is another language meaning the word God, there are details of their beliefs that are tought or discussed that is what they do in mosques.

I don't really see your confusion.

You don't see my confusion, because I don't have any, do you ?

Definition of religion from Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th ed. >>> A system of belief and worship with a code of ethics. (my emphasis)

"Ethics" ? Could these Islamic practices (straight out of the Koran) really allow Islam to fit this definition ?

1. Genocide - Koran 8:12, 9:5, 9:73, 9:123, and literally hundreds more.

2. Wife-Beating - Koran 4:34.

3. Rape - Koran 2:223, 4:24, 4:34.

4. Pedophilia - Koran 65:4

5. Slavery - Koran 33:50

6. Animal Cruelty/Killing - Koran 2:125, 22:27-28.

Note: question pertains to ISLAM, not Christianity, Judaism, or anything else. Go to the New Thread button if you want to talk about those others.

clax · Dec 28, 2012

Protectionist said:
Go into a Catholic Church and you'll find the New Testament. Bet you won't find the Old Testament there. I'm not really a bible person anyway. And again, the thread is about ISLAM. Please stay on topic.

The American standard Bible is the Catholic Bible in the states there is an old testament in it others use the Douey Rhiems bible, both contain an old testament

Here is a link have a look if you don't believe me
http://www.drbo.org/

Further more I was responding to your false statement that Christians don't have an old testament further more that it was a separate Bible, you deviated from your topic note this is your topic.

Yes Islam is a religion, mainly because it fits the definition of the word, there is nothing more to say.

clax · Dec 28, 2012

Protectionist said:
You don't see my confusion, because I don't have any, do you ?

Definition of religion from Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th ed. >>> A system of belief and worship with a code of ethics. (my emphasis)

"Ethics" ? Could these Islamic practices (straight out of the Koran) really allow Islam to fit this definition ?

1. Genocide - Koran 8:12, 9:5, 9:73, 9:123, and literally hundreds more.

2. Wife-Beating - Koran 4:34.

3. Rape - Koran 2:223, 4:24, 4:34.

4. Pedophilia - Koran 65:4

5. Slavery - Koran 33:50

6. Animal Cruelty/Killing - Koran 2:125, 22:27-28.

Note: question pertains to ISLAM, not Christianity, Judaism, or anything else. Go to the New Thread button if you want to talk about those others.

It really pertains to religion, you asked if Islam is a religion, yes it is, because there is a worship of a deity, there is a discussion of beliefs, beliefs are tought it fits the criteria of religion much like other religions, if I can't use other religions to compare it to than this is an impossible discussion to have with you

clax · Dec 28, 2012

Hey protectionist, are you one of those people that i have to agree with you or be wrong?

clax · Dec 28, 2012

Protectionist said:
You don't see my confusion, because I don't have any, do you ?

Definition of religion from Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th ed. >>> A system of belief and worship with a code of ethics. (my emphasis)

"Ethics" ? Could these Islamic practices (straight out of the Koran) really allow Islam to fit this definition ?

1. Genocide - Koran 8:12, 9:5, 9:73, 9:123, and literally hundreds more.

2. Wife-Beating - Koran 4:34.

3. Rape - Koran 2:223, 4:24, 4:34.

4. Pedophilia - Koran 65:4

5. Slavery - Koran 33:50

6. Animal Cruelty/Killing - Koran 2:125, 22:27-28.

Note: question pertains to ISLAM, not Christianity, Judaism, or anything else. Go to the New Thread button if you want to talk about those others.

Oldham has different ethics. Ethics are not universal. This thread is snot religion, and weather or not prism is one, you are comparing it to yours by saying it doesn't share the same ethics.

The topic is religion putting Islam under scrutiny, but i am going to continue to talk about christianity and Buddhism and Jedi and so on because I can. Go hey the moderator to see if my posts are on topic.

Protectionist · Dec 28, 2012

clax said:
The American standard Bible is the Catholic Bible in the states there is an old testament in it others use the Douey Rhiems bible, both contain an old testament

Here is a link have a look if you don't believe me
http://www.drbo.org/

Further more I was responding to your false statement that Christians don't have an old testament further more that it was a separate Bible, you deviated from your topic note this is your topic.

Yes Islam is a religion, mainly because it fits the definition of the word, there is nothing more to say.

You have not addressed the challenge offered by million of people who say that Islam does NOT fit the definition of the word, because it is too UNethical to be a religion. There's no requirement to address this challenge, but I'm just saying thus far, you haven't.

As far as deviating from my topic, yes I have (in response to deviations)

Is Islam a Religion

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