National Security or Liberty?

David said:

Profiling may work if the target is small and a quick discovery will end the threat. When this doesn't work, the threat will evolve. It will take a form your profiling ignores. Jihad Jane is a great example of this.

Click to expand...

The threat already evolves and the TSA is always behind the power curve because they are always checking for the last mehod that was used by terrorists. Its like a big game and they will play it for ever if we let them.

Behavioral profiling is more constitutional than the intrusive scanners and pat-downs and would have the chance to catch a terrorist no matter what or how they are trying to sneak past.

obtuseobserver said:

And thousands of Arab terrorists are great examples of the profile working

Outliers like your exception do not fit profiling because they are outliers. Profiling is a sifting tool. It produces a batch of likely suspects for further investigation. This helps save resources by zeroing in on better suspects.

Click to expand...

Terrorism is beyond the scope of Islam alone. The IRS attack was a white guy angry at taxes, religion had nothing to do with it. The sectarian violence that has been spreading in this country? Almost exclusively Christian. And what of all the Chinese and White Muslims (the majority)? What good is profiling Arabs when they account for just 20% of Islam? What about the other 80%?

For every terrorist that is caught thanks to profiling, how many will be unjustly detained? How many will not be profiled? Jihad Jane isn't an anomaly, the Russians can tell you as much.

David said:

Terrorism is beyond the scope of Islam alone. The IRS attack was a white guy angry at taxes, religion had nothing to do with it. The sectarian violence that has been spreading in this country? Almost exclusively Christian. And what of all the Chinese and White Muslims (the majority)? What good is profiling Arabs when they account for just 20% of Islam? What about the other 80%?

For every terrorist that is caught thanks to profiling, how many will be unjustly detained? How many will not be profiled? Jihad Jane isn't an anomaly, the Russians can tell you as much.

Click to expand...

Again, where is the source material?

Behaviorial profiling isn't, "hey you there! You look arabic let me make sure you are not a terrorist". It means watching how people "behave" and asking travelers questions. It has nothing to do with skin color.

David said:

Terrorism is beyond the scope of Islam alone.

Click to expand...

Could be. However, we haven't had much trouble with terrorists who are not Muslim. That being true we should probably concentrate on that genre of terrorist.

David said:

The IRS attack was a white guy angry at taxes, religion had nothing to do with it.

Click to expand...

Right. But that was an act of anger by a single person not part of a larger plan hatched and raised by a group dedicated to the destruction of the IRS. So, back to concentrating on Muslim terrorists who are part of a larger group that plans and carries out terror missions against us and others.

David said:

The sectarian violence that has been spreading in this country? Almost exclusively Christian.

Click to expand...

You'll have to point me at terror events Christians engaged in in the US in the name of God. Also, you'll need to point me at which US based Christian terror orgs have sent their agents to conduct these terror attacks.

David said:

And what of all the Chinese and White Muslims (the majority)?

Click to expand...

What of them? Most terrorists have been Arab Muslims. Certainly not all but most. Back to using profiling as a sifting tool. Back to realizing outliers are outliers. That they exist doesn't mean we should give up a tool that helps pick the low hanging fruit.

David said:

What good is profiling Arabs when they account for just 20% of Islam? What about the other 80%?

Click to expand...

See above. The disparate rate of Muslim terrorists makes including "Arab" on a profile very useful.

David said:

For every terrorist that is caught thanks to profiling, how many will be unjustly detained? How many will not be profiled? Jihad Jane isn't an anomaly, the Russians can tell you as much.

Click to expand...

I don't know. How many dead people are you willing to accept in order not to upset an innocent person who fits the profile sufficiently to be detained to determine if more scrutiny would be advisable?

WillypHD said:

It has nothing to do with skin color.

Click to expand...

race (ethnicity) matters... but it is simply one amongst a laundry list of criteria


I love using a Simpsons bit to illustrate this....


Snake steals a car. Chief Wiggum describes the suspect as, "hatless, repeat, hatless."

Pretty good description huh? The fact is that when one describes a suspect the two most important features are race and sex. We start sifting at that level. Then we go to height and weight then maybe eye color and distiguishing markings, scars etc. Manner of dress, behavior etc also count. But race matters.

obtuseobserver said:

race (ethnicity) matters... but it is simply one amongst a laundry list of criteria


I love using a Simpsons bit to illustrate this....


Snake steals a car. Chief Wiggum describes the suspect as, "hatless, repeat, hatless."

Pretty good description huh? The fact is that when one describes a suspect the two most important features are race and sex. We start sifting at that level. Then we go to height and weight then maybe eye color and distiguishing markings, scars etc. Manner of dress, behavior etc also count. But race matters.

Click to expand...

Yes you are correct on this, mostly the point I was trying to make was that its not "racial profiling", race is not the only thing they look for, like you said. People are so afraid of the word profiling, that they cannot think strait. We need to get people over their fear of the word.

"Profiling" to many people is synonymous with racism. That is evidence of shallow thought.

If an investigator were told to find a person and the only thing he had was the person's race it would be meaningless.

Lefties have done the same thing with the word discrimination. They have coopted it into meaning more than just racist. To them it means including or excluding a person into or from a group on criteria with which they disagree.

The leftists have a way with hyperbolizing and hollowing out definitions to suit their purposes. This is a product of emotional and reactionary thought.

So, who thinks the current TSA measures will be changed, and how?

I do believe the TSA will change the way it is checking people, but I'm not sure how. I just really hope it does not go union, that will be bad for everyone.

.