Republicans: I WARNED YOU.

David · Jan 12, 2013

Protectionist said:
I don't need Dirk (whoever he is) to explain it. I know as much about Marx and his policies I'll ever need to know. And wasn't it just the CAPITALIST state that he was calling for dissoution of ? (not necessarily a "state" per se).

In fact, by Marx's advice of having the income tax system redistribute wealth, and keep it equalized, it might appear Marx was OK with a state, as long as it was doing what he preferred. You can't have an income tax without a state.

He believed in a system of decentralized soviets run by direct democracy (and thus lacking any kind of organized gov't). Any support of the state only went so far as to ensure social order was maintained while the revolution slowly dismantled it. Marx was no statist and to claim otherwise is ether ignorance or a lie.

Protectionist · Jan 12, 2013

David said:
He believed in a system of decentralized soviets run by direct democracy (and thus lacking any kind of organized gov't). Any support of the state only went so far as to ensure social order was maintained while the revolution slowly dismantled it. Marx was no statist and to claim otherwise is ether ignorance or a lie.

I'll let your definition fly, because frankly, my friend, I don't give a damn.

myp · Jan 13, 2013

Marx/Engels wrote of communism as a classless, stateless, moneyless society. You can look that up- it is everywhere (including The Communist Manifesto). Socialism was the transition to communism, which was state-led (dictatorship of the proletariat), but the ultimate goal was to get rid of the state.

David · Jan 13, 2013

myp said:
Marx/Engels wrote of communism as a classless, stateless, moneyless society. You can look that up- it is everywhere (including The Communist Manifesto). Socialism was the transition to communism, which was state-led (dictatorship of the proletariat), but the ultimate goal was to get rid of the state.

this fact get in the way of all the big gov't = socialism arguments that get made and thus all the denial and retreat when faced with too many facts.

Protectionist · Jan 13, 2013

David said:
this fact get in the way of all the big gov't = socialism arguments that get made and thus all the denial and retreat when faced with too many facts.

But there isn't any "way" (Marx or anyone else) other than just what the American people decide we want for ourselves. Right now , that would be much higher taxes on the rich. If anyone wants to call that Marxist, OK. If they what to say it's not Marxist, that's OK too. In any case, what the American people choose to do is the point of reference, not Marx, or anyone else.

http://www.capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/bruce-bartlett/2292/americans-support-higher-taxes-really

Stonewall · Jan 14, 2013

Protectionist said:
Everything you said to me, I say it right back to you (talking points, motive, agenda).

I stand behind the OP 100%, and really it can't be denied. The American people have long discarded the false notion of trickle down economics, and have come to embrace (so the polls say) >> Percolate Up economics generated by higher taxes on the rich, and govt jobs created (FOR AMERICANS, not foreigners), especially to fight illegal immigration, and thereby prevent massive welfare $$$ loss and massive remittances$$ loss.

Those ARE the issues (partially), and I'm discussing them right now.

"It really can't be denied" is a talking point, not only can it be denied, but you're wrong on content. In any free society, there is nothing other than trickle down economics. It either trickles down from the private sector or gets redistributed by the government. Either way, you're not discussing, you're making a false claim pretending it's reality.

myp · Jan 14, 2013

Stonewall said:
"It really can't be denied" is a talking point, not only can it be denied, but you're wrong on content. In any free society, there is nothing other than trickle down economics. It either trickles down from the private sector or gets redistributed by the government. Either way, you're not discussing, you're making a false claim pretending it's reality.

As are you...

Protectionist · Jan 14, 2013

Stonewall said:
"It really can't be denied" is a talking point, not only can it be denied, but you're wrong on content. In any free society, there is nothing other than trickle down economics. It either trickles down from the private sector or gets redistributed by the government. Either way, you're not discussing, you're making a false claim pretending it's reality.

NO, it's NOT a "talking point". It's just words that came in to my head at that moment and I wrote them down.

Trickle down economics is trick down economics. It is the rich trying to trick the lower classes into going along with low taxes and whatever else will feed their greed. YOU are making a false claim, and pretending it's reality. And you're not fooling anybody. Look who just got elected President of the United States. Or if you can't stomach that, then look at all these polls.

http://www.capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/bruce-bartlett/2292/americans-support-higher-taxes-really

You're just another one of the Republicans whom I warned, who didn't heed the warning, stuck to your idiot agenda, and LOST the Presidency for another 4 years. YOUR WORDS are the perfect example of everything I pointed out in the OP. 100% confirmation.

PS - if you weren't on Obama's campaign payroll, you lost out.

Stonewall · Jan 14, 2013

Protectionist said:
NO, it's NOT a "talking point". It's just words that came in to my head at that moment and I wrote them down.

Words that came into your head but 'can't be denied', right?

Trickle down economics is trick down economics. It is the rich trying to trick the lower classes into going along with low taxes and whatever else will feed their greed. YOU are making a false claim, and pretending it's reality. And you're not fooling anybody. Look who just got elected President of the United States. Or if you can't stomach that, then look at all these polls.

It is "the rich" trying to "trick" the "lower classes?" You are a walking talking point, Sir. Look at your 'this or that cannot be denied' nonsense, the "rich" aren't to be grouped into any single thought no more than I could claim whites, Jewish, or women can be grouped into a singlular thought process. Quit watching John Stewart and/or Oprah for your news, Liberal.

You're just another one of the Republicans whom I warned, who didn't heed the warning, stuck to your idiot agenda, and LOST the Presidency for another 4 years. YOUR WORDS are the perfect example of everything I pointed out in the OP. 100% confirmation.

I'm stuck to no agenda(another talking point becase you cannot debate me fairly), I simply am telling you no other economic system exists but trickle down economics in any free representative society. It's how this nation was built, it's how nearly every free culture from ancient Greece to Revolutionary America was born. The book covered with dust with the binding still uncracked on the shelf there is called American History. I suggest you read it.:smug:

PS - if you weren't on Obama's campaign payroll, you lost out.

I 'lose out' on many handouts, Sir, my guess is.....you don't.

Stonewall · Jan 14, 2013

myp said:
As are you...

You're mistaken. There is no other economic system....it doesn't exist. You can call it top down, trickle down, you can call it whtever you'd like. Human beings are not equals as far as production and intelligence are concerned. You may debate how to transfer or redistribute funds, it comes down to the same thing.

Otherwise, you'd give me the name of the last poor person who hired you.

myp · Jan 14, 2013

Stonewall said:
You're mistaken. There is no other economic system....it doesn't exist. You can call it top down, trickle down, you can call it whtever you'd like. Human beings are not equals as far as production and intelligence are concerned. You may debate how to transfer or redistribute funds, it comes down to the same thing.

Otherwise, you'd give me the name of the last poor person who hired you.

You are going on so many tangents here and I think you missed my point. You are using political talking points with little basis in reality just like he is. For example, when you said "In any free society, there is nothing other than trickle down economics. It either trickles down from the private sector or gets redistributed by the government."

Stonewall · Jan 14, 2013

myp said:
You are going on so many tangents here and I think you missed my point. You are using political talking points with little basis in reality just like he is. For example, when you said "In any free society, there is nothing other than trickle down economics. It either trickles down from the private sector or gets redistributed by the government."

Oh...there was a point being made that I missed? The entire point being made here....is a talking point. The rants about the rich.....or warnings about Republicans......you can hear from any talking head on TV.

I'm giving you reality and if it's a tangent then so be it. Trickle down economics is reality, we're all living it right now. And it's resulted in the greatest economy and country known to the planet....to date. That's not a talking point....it's just the way it is. Still confused?

myp · Jan 14, 2013

Stonewall said:
I'm giving you reality and if it's a tangent then so be it. Trickle down economics is reality, we're all living it right now. And it's resulted in the greatest economy and country known to the planet....to date. That's not a talking point....it's just the way it is. Still confused?

"Trickle down" economics in and of itself is a political moniker

And knock it off with the snark. If you want to flame and troll people go to another forum.

David · Jan 14, 2013

Stonewall said:
Oh...there was a point being made that I missed? The entire point being made here....is a talking point. The rants about the rich.....or warnings about Republicans......you can hear from any talking head on TV.

I'm giving you reality and if it's a tangent then so be it. Trickle down economics is reality, we're all living it right now. And it's resulted in the greatest economy and country known to the planet....to date. That's not a talking point....it's just the way it is. Still confused?

Trolling is stupid, trolling the admin... You trying to get banned?

a777pilot · Jan 14, 2013

Protectionist said:
Over a year ago, I wrote a post telling Republicans that nobody is buying the trickle down economics BS anymore. If you push tax cuts for the rich, in November you'll be toast.

This election, the candidates and the results, is a prime example of why I am for the immediate repeal of the 22d Amendment.

....and have been since 1972.

Stonewall · Jan 14, 2013

David said:
Trolling is stupid, trolling the admin... You trying to get banned?

Schooling this forum on economic theory isn't trolling, I'm sorry you disagree. And I see nothing in this thread start but trolling so......why would anyone get banned?

Stonewall · Jan 14, 2013

myp said:
"Trickle down" economics in and of itself is a political moniker

In your opinion....and you're wrong.

And knock it off with the snark. If you want to flame and troll people go to another forum.

You mistake style for snark, my style is my own and I've broken no rules. Yet. Trickle down economics is reality.....not any moniker and if me pointing out your error is snark....ban me.

myp · Jan 14, 2013

Stonewall said:
In your opinion....and you're wrong.

You mistake style for snark, my style is my own and I've broken no rules. Yet. Trickle down economics is reality.....not any moniker and if me pointing out your error is snark....ban me.

Me and the rest of the staff will decide if you've broken a rule or not. That right is reserved to us, not you

As for trickle down "economics" - you know that is a derogatory term often associated with the Chicago school and supply-side theory, right? Show me an actual economics paper, textbook, etc. that talks about a theory actually called "trickle down".

Stonewall · Jan 14, 2013

myp said:
Me and the rest of the staff will decide if you've broken a rule or not. That right is reserved to us, not you

Then with all due respect, mention that. I read the FAQ/rules, I didn't see anything about "me and the rest of the staff will decide if you've broken a rule". Personally, I couldn't care less what right you think is reserved for you and staff, I've broken none of your written rule and in my own style...am looking for substance and debate and maybe a lil fun banter. If that person ain't you, have a nice day.

As for trickle down "economics" - you know that is a derogatory term often associated with the Chicago school and supply-side theory, right? Show me an actual economics paper, textbook, etc. that talks about a theory actually called "trickle down".

That's my entire point, Sir! It isn't an economic theory.....it's economic reality. It's the economic reality that built this nation, it's the economic reality of capitalism, it's even the reality of government taxing and redistributing, that is trickle down reality, not theory. Thank you for finally understanding!

tecoyah · Jan 14, 2013

Stonewall said:
Then with all due respect, mention that. I read the FAQ/rules, I didn't see anything about "me and the rest of the staff will decide if you've broken a rule". Personally, I couldn't care less what right you think is reserved for you and staff, I've broken none of your written rule and in my own style...am looking for substance and debate and maybe a lil fun banter. If that person ain't you, have a nice day.

That's my entire point, Sir! It isn't an economic theory.....it's economic reality. It's the economic reality that built this nation, it's the economic reality of capitalism, it's even the reality of government taxing and redistributing, that is trickle down reality, not theory. Thank you for finally understanding!

While I agree every member here should be allowed to express opinion, create discussion, and enjoy each other...There must be controls to human interaction should we wish to create such an atmosphere. On occasion it becomes important to make it clear when this stability is compromised.

It is important to understand this is not an attack on the individual, but instead a means of maintaining a civil and enjoyable place for the membership/community.

The beauty/detriment of this type of system is seen by each member individually, and the experience quite unique. However, we must evaluate everyone in the context of what has been created here and when one seems to be less than ideal, we try to guide toward the ideal.

I personally, have noted a few things that cause concern...as I have explained through PM.

I am impressed with what you bring thus far, as well as the ability to adapt to what we desire....Please continue to do so.

Republicans: I WARNED YOU.

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