The "fence" is a horrible idea

myp · Sep 18, 2011

Patrick said:
Sort of like driver's licenses, income tax returns, medicare and medicaid info, social security cards - like all THAT stuff, huh?

Yes, exactly. What's your point?

Patrick said:
Nonsense.

Not nonsense. The 10th amendment clearly leaves such things to the states. This would be just another usurpation of power by the Federal government from the states. I for one, won't accept that. Funny how you seem to be for the Constitution, except for when you are not.

Patrick said:
RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT - LOOTS THE WELFARE SYSTEM, SUCKS IN LOW IQ ILLITERATE RURAL MEXICAN PEASANTS WHEN WE NEED TOP QUALITY IMMIGRANTS TO COMPETE IN THE WORLD, BANKRUPTS ERs AND WHOLE HOSPITALS IN CALIFORNIA, FILLS THE PRISONS, BALKANIZES THE COUNTRY, IN THE FUTURE WILL LOAD UP THE COUNTRY WITH DEMOCRAT VOTERS - RIIIIIIIGHT - IT "HELPS" THE COUNTRY. YOU'VE TAKEN LEAVE OF YOUR SENSES.

Loots the welfare system- not really. Legal immigration costs more. Illegal aliens also still pay sales taxes etc. - many of them even pay income taxes through false identifications to keep the IRS away.

"Low IQ"- not really. Just because they work on farms does not mean they have low IQ, especially if IQ tests actually test what they are supposed to- IQ.

Votes- illegal immigrants can't vote

Most of them probably don't want to anyway because it increases their chances of getting caught.

You are misguided on this topic as most Americans are due to what you hear from the politicians. Most economists actually agree on this topic that illegal immigration helps. And with that I leave you with a couple videos from someone who can explain these things far better than I can, Milton Friedman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eyJIbSgdSE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfU9Fqah-f4

Patrick · Sep 18, 2011

myp said:
Yes, exactly. What's your point?

Then you're something like an anarcho-libertarian, and we're arguing at cross purposes.

Not nonsense. The 10th amendment clearly leaves such things to the states. This would be just another usurpation of power by the Federal government from the states. I for one, won't accept that. Funny how you seem to be for the Constitution, except for when you are not.

Any reasonable person will admit that the tenth is open to wide possibilities of interpretation - not necessarily yours.

Loots the welfare system- not really. Legal immigration costs more.

Hogwash. And in "illegal" I include the ones who nave been "legalized" by USSC wrongly-decided fiat, namely the anchor babies.

Illegal aliens also still pay sales taxes etc. - many of them even pay income taxes through false identifications to keep the IRS away.

And many of them DON'T - they're paid under the table with cash.

"Low IQ"- not really. Just because they work on farms does not mean they have low IQ, especially if IQ tests actually test what they are supposed to- IQ.

Hispanics regularly score just above the bottom category, blacks, on practically every measure of intelligence. Further, the US has to bring spanish-speaking illegal alien school children up to speed in a way it doesn't for american kids, who've spoken english since they were infants. For awhile, before the people in california illegalized it by legislative initiative, the los angles unified school system, which basically exists to teach hundreds of thousands of illegal alien school children, had to import TEACHERS AND SCHOOLBOOKS FROM MEXICO CITY, TO TEACH THEM HOW TO READ AND WRITE IN SPANISH BEFORE THEY COULD BE TAUGHT ENGLISH!

Votes

Strawman.

You are misguided on this topic as most Americans are due to what you hear from the politicians.

You don't know what you're talking about. Anyone who lives in southern california or the southwest, and lives and breathes these things every day, would laugh in your face at your ignorance. You've been brainwashed and misinformed by the liberal media, and swallowed their disinformation hook, line, and sinker.

Most economists actually agree on this topic that illegal immigration helps.

Most, not all, current day academic economists are in the liberal camp, and on such issues, their "economics" proceeds from their liberalism, not vice versa. Here, you are using argument to authority, an example of a logical fallacy. Bring up specific points and they can be debated.

And with that I leave you with a couple videos from someone who can explain these things far better than I can, Milton Friedman:

Almost ANYBODY can explain things better than you.

But fun aside, you are using argument to authority, and this is one of the few things Friedman was simply wrong on.

myp · Sep 18, 2011

A few points and I am done with you on this topic because clearly you don't want to discuss logical points (as usual) but instead want to make an argument based on your intuition.

-Any variance in intelligence due to race based on genetics is small and can almost always be overcome with changes in environment.

-Many illegal aliens do in fact pay income tax- estimates are in the billions of dollars. Even then, they never take social security, etc. because they can't so even those who may not aren't really "mooching" much as they still pay many other taxes like sales. They also add to the economy by providing cheap and quality labor for businesses and by adding production.

-Most economists are not of the "liberal" camp. It varies (clearly you haven't looked at the group over at GMU or people like Mankiw or Levitt, etc.). But of course for you its all just a liberal conspiracy. There is a lot of data on the matter and even historical examples (i.e. the era of free immigration) or a flatout cost-benefit analysis shows that illegal immigration is less costly and arguably beneficial compared to legal immigration. Politicians just can't argue for it because doing so means they are arguing for breaking the law. But you keep making your argument based on your intuition- I don't expect anything more from you

myp · Sep 18, 2011

And since you seem to like what the politicians say more (instead of studies, facts, and data), here's a video of Bush and Reagan touching on the matter:

[YOUTUBE]Ixi9_cciy8w[/YOUTUBE]

Patrick · Sep 18, 2011

myp said:
A few points and I am done with you on this topic because clearly you don't want to discuss logical points (as usual) but instead want to make an argument based on your intuition.

YOU make "arguments" to authority - so and so says it's great to import 20 million, looting, law breaking, drug smuggling aliens in, and that's enough for you - you don't know or care what their arguments are, nor the validity fo their arguments.

-Any variance in intelligence due to race based on genetics is small and can almost always be overcome with changes in environment.

That's utterly false, it was demolished by the Bell Curve book, and the US taxpayer shouldn't be responsible for financing "changes in environment" sufficient to bring illiterate mexican peons up to speed. Looks like you actually SUSPEND your big government opposition in the case of illegal alien invaders.

-Many illegal aliens do in fact pay income tax- estimates are in the billions of dollars.

Links, citations, from a credible qualified neutral source? And how much under the table money DON'T they pay tax on?

Even then, they never take social security, etc. because they can't so even those who may not aren't really "mooching" much as they still pay many other taxes like sales.

More distortion by you. You're ignoring, just giving one example, the pregnant women who sneak across the border, then via an erroneous USSC decision, stay and collect all kinds of benefits as the guardian of a "US citizen", and also can fire off the chain migration, which brings in a whole load of relatives, many of whom will be eligible for social security benefits when they get citizenship, even though they never contributed a dime.

They also add to the economy by providing cheap and quality labor for businesses and by adding production.

What GARBAGE. They are law breakers whom labor intensive industries know they can exploit because they can't complain, and put US workers out of work, who then become a further load on the welfare system.

-Most economists are not of the "liberal" camp. It varies (clearly you haven't looked at the group over at GMU or people like Mankiw or Levitt, etc.). But of course for you its all just a liberal conspiracy. There is a lot of data on the matter and even historical examples (i.e. the era of free immigration) or a flatout cost-benefit analysis shows that illegal immigration is less costly and arguably beneficial compared to legal immigration. Politicians just can't argue for it because doing so means they are arguing for breaking the law. But you keep making your argument based on your intuition- I don't expect anything more from you

You keep making these claims, but never cite any facts. It's all hot air.

myp · Sep 18, 2011

I don't make arguments based on purely ethos. You are the one that actually does that by literally just forcing your antiquated views out there ad nauseum (actually you don't even make a strong case through ethos come to think of it- it is just ad nauseum nonsense). You are the one that never gives any support or evidence (and when asked, you just tell people to Google it. Not how debate works). But hey, live in your utopia and keep wasting your time believing in a false reality.

Oh and genetics only accounts for 40-60% of IQ according to current experts- the rest being environment. The most current research and analysis of The Bell Curve (not the popularized version, the real academic version [written by the same people]) suggest and more than support that. It turns out that uprising, etc. will play the major role in differentiating IQ of peoples and hence, hispanics are no less intelligent than whites, blacks, or asians in general. It often comes down to how their lives go as they grow.

Patrick · Sep 19, 2011

myp said:
I don't make arguments based on purely ethos. You are the one that actually does that by literally just forcing your antiquated views out there ad nauseum (actually you don't even make a strong case through ethos come to think of it- it is just ad nauseum nonsense). You are the one that never gives any support or evidence (and when asked, you just tell people to Google it. Not how debate works). But hey, live in your utopia and keep wasting your time believing in a false reality.

OK - I'll play your silly ass game: No. YOU are the one who never gives any evidence - just argument to authority. Now - your turn!

Oh and genetics only accounts for 40-60% of IQ according to current experts- the rest being environment. The most current research and analysis of The Bell Curve (not the popularized version, the real academic version [written by the same people]) suggest and more than support that. It turns out that uprising, etc. will play the major role in differentiating IQ of peoples and hence, hispanics are no less intelligent than whites, blacks, or asians in general. It often comes down to how their lives go as they grow.

As usual no exact citation of evidence from you.

myp · Sep 19, 2011

You realize you have given no evidence for your claims at all right? I have at least cited people who have studies on the matter that you could find. But, fine, here's a few to start you off:

On illegal immigrants paying taxes: http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm

A study on the effect of illegal immigration (concludes a net positive effect): http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...qe3DDQ&usg=AFQjCNEH_n8oj23aWPfpThhDvPp57hBzPA

Mankiw on immigration: http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006/04/immigration.html

And a discussion by a couple of economists through WSJ: http://online.wsj.com/public/articl...html?mod=tff_main_tff_top#articleTabs=article

Oh and your idea that illegal immigrants take jobs and leave Americans unemployed is misguided. The number of jobs in a market is not static. No one believes that. Also, most owners would probably prefer legal hiring since it is legal (less risk), but they don't hire those Americans either because they can't find good American workers willing to work at those wages or those American workers won't work below the minimum wage.

Patrick · Sep 19, 2011

myp said:
You realize you have given no evidence for your claims at all right? I have at least cited people who have studies on the matter that you could find. But, fine, here's a few to start you off:

On illegal immigrants paying taxes: http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm

USA Today is a liberal rag, is CERTAINLY not a credible neutral source, and your article cites no studies published in peer-reviewed academic journals, and even admits that amount of taxes and evaded taxes is UNKNOWN. Fanned the air there, Sparky.

A study on the effect of illegal immigration (concludes a net positive effect): http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCgQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cfr.org%2Fcontent%2Fpublications%2Fattachments%2FImmigrationCSR26.pdf&rct=j&q=illegal%20immigration%20positive%20for%20economy&ei=RaJ3TtuLE-n10gHxqe3DDQ&usg=AFQjCNEH_n8oj23aWPfpThhDvPp57hBzPA

The above link was blocked by my computer security sw because it tried to download a file.

Mankiw on immigration: http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006/04/immigration.html

Mankiw's article is an opinion piece, not a journal article, which starts out "I am not an expert on this topic".

Mankiw's level can be inferred from his promotion in the last few years of keynsian economics, which just had its second big outdoor experiment - obama's economic policies, which failed, just as the first big experiment failed in the 1930s. Enough said.

And a discussion by a couple of economists through WSJ: http://online.wsj.com/public/articl...html?mod=tff_main_tff_top#articleTabs=article

Quoting from your article:

But illegal immigration differs from legal immigration in several important respects. First, illegal immigrants tend to have low skill levels, which means they end up in jobs in agriculture, construction, household services, landscaping, low-end manufacturing, or restaurants and lodging. Employers in these industries (and consumers of the goods these industries produce) are primarily the ones who benefit from illegal immigration. In a recent study, Patricia Cortes, a graduate student at MIT, finds that U.S. cities that have higher larger immigrant inflows have lower prices for housekeeping, gardening, and other labor intensive services. Ten percent more immigration lowers prices for these services by about 1.3%.

This is not news - the people who benefit are only owners of labor intensive businesses, plus rich people who hire nannies, housekeepers and gardeners. Meantime, the immense social costs, apparently not considered by the authors, for such things as crimes committed, imprisonment (25% of california's vast prison population is illegal aliens), bankrupted ERs, welfare benefits collected, free schooling etc etc etc, are spread out over all taxpayers. This also doesn't take into such effects as deliberate balkanization of the country for leftwing political purposes.

Oh and your idea that illegal immigrants take jobs and leave Americans unemployed is misguided. The number of jobs in a market is not static. No one believes that.

Strawman - nothing I said is predicated on such a stupid assumption.

Also, most owners would probably prefer legal hiring since it is legal (less risk), but they don't hire those Americans either because they can't find good American workers willing to work at those wages or those American workers won't work below the minimum wage.

Pure, refined 110% BULLsh_T from you once again. I didn't think anyone over 12 still believed that standard liberal propaganda. They can't find american workers willing to work at the illegal blackmarket wages scofflaw employers pay in their criminal enterprise. In the absence of illegal aliens, labor intensive industry wages would rise until some american took the job.

David · Sep 19, 2011

Hey Patrick, mind actually refuting the argument? No Us don't pass for debate outside Kindergarten.

myp · Sep 20, 2011

Download the link I sent you- it is a pdf which is why it takes it as a file instead of a page (depending on what browser/options you use). As for the WSJ article, what's your point with the quotation? The article clearly says there is a net benefit to illegal immigration.

Pure, refined 110% BULLsh_T from you once again. I didn't think anyone over 12 still believed that standard liberal propaganda. They can't find american workers willing to work at the illegal blackmarket wages scofflaw employers pay in their criminal enterprise. In the absence of illegal aliens, labor intensive industry wages would rise until some american took the job.

Not true. The minimum wage destroys jobs for just that reason. There are workers that produce productivity at values under the minimum wage and with the price floor it makes no sense to hire them. The price mechanism is bigger than you and I- take your intuitive fantasies elsewhere

Patrick · Sep 20, 2011

myp said:
Not true. The minimum wage destroys jobs for just that reason. There are workers that produce productivity at values under the minimum wage and with the price floor it makes no sense to hire them. The price mechanism is bigger than you and I- take your intuitive fantasies elsewhere

Your attempt to equate illegal alien black labor market wages with the minimum wage is assinine. The former wages are lowered because of the intimidation of the implied threat of an employer who can get them deported at will - a sort of extortion. The latter is merely a fiat wage.

Strike out again for you Sparky.

CatholicCrusader · Sep 20, 2011

Patrick said:
Your attempt to equate illegal alien black labor market wages with the minimum wage is assinine..........

Situation: NORMAL

myp · Sep 20, 2011

Patrick said:
Your attempt to equate illegal alien black labor market wages with the minimum wage is assinine. The former wages are lowered because of the intimidation of the implied threat of an employer who can get them deported at will - a sort of extortion. The latter is merely a fiat wage.

Strike out again for you Sparky.

No it is not. Both are a matter of the price mechanism and productivity. Those people that come here to work do so because it is better off for them- deportation threats aren't what keeps them working- it is the money (why should they even care about deportation if they are working for wages that they don't deem worth it?)

And that aside, taking a look at black and teenage unemployment with the implementation of the minimum wage as well as with subsequent hikes and the plethora of economic work on the matter, it is clear that the minimum wage destroys jobs and that there is demand and supply for work below that wage. Let me put it in terms you will understand:

Tommy is about to get his first job. He can do the job and make the company $5/hour and the company knows this. The minimum wage is $6/hour, so hiring Tommy means the company will lose money on the transaction. Tommy does not get hired.

Now let's add to that. Tommy thinks he deserves $6/hour and doesn't find it worth his time to work for $4/hour, especially since it means breaking the law too. Pablo, however, was unemployed in Mexico and would love to work for $4/hour. He also makes the company $5/hour. He takes the job at the $4/hour rate. The company wins (added $1/hour productivity), Pablo wins (has a job at $4/hour), and the economy wins (added productivity of the company). Tommy wasn't going to work at that wage anyway, so he breaks out even. Even if all illegal aliens were somehow kept out, Tommy still wouldn't take the job and the company would lose its added productivity, as would the economy, and Pablo wouldn't have his new job.

Patrick · Sep 20, 2011

myp said:
No it is not. Both are a matter of the price mechanism and productivity.

Bullfeathers.

They know the INS is a farce, a fake enforcement agency - they have no chance of going to prison for breaking federal immigration law. But if they complain about being paid slave wages, and they are turned in, they'll be dumped into mexico. There, they can pay a coyote to take them back over the border after they complete the difficult task of earning that in mexico, and take another walk across the sonoran desert where they have a good chance of dying from the elements or mexican ambushers. Meantime, even if they eventually succeed in coming back, they aren't sending their mexican families any money. KNOWING all this, both the employer and the illegals "price in" the consequences to the low wages they receive. It has nothing to do with a market wage, but rather what advantage the employer can gleen from implied extortion.

myp · Sep 20, 2011

Patrick said:
Bullfeathers.

They know the INS is a farce, a fake enforcement agency - they have no chance of going to prison for breaking federal immigration law. But if they complain about being paid slave wages, and they are turned in, they'll be dumped into mexico. There, they can pay a coyote to take them back over the border after they complete the difficult task of earning that in mexico, and take another walk across the sonoran desert where they have a good chance of dying from the elements or mexican ambushers. Meantime, even if they eventually succeed in coming back, they aren't sending their mexican families any money. KNOWING all this, both the employer and the illegals "price in" the consequences to the low wages they receive. It has nothing to do with a market wage, but rather what advantage the employer can gleen from implied extortion.

Your little anecdotes are nothing short of fiction. You also still haven't addressed my points.

And if you think your explanation does explain it all care to share some PROOF?

Patrick · Sep 20, 2011

myp said:
Your little anecdotes are nothing short of fiction. You also still haven't addressed my points.

And if you think your explanation does explain it all care to share some PROOF?

Why should I, when YOU haven't? Just little opinion pieces from the lib media. That's the sort of thing you say when you have no rebuttal. I haven't given any "little anecdotes", and people who LIVE here know you don't know what you're talking about. You also haven't addressed all my rebuttals to your regurgitation of standard leftwing talking points.

myp · Sep 20, 2011

Patrick said:
Why should I, when YOU haven't? Just little opinion pieces from the lib media. That's the sort of thing you say when you have no rebuttal. I haven't given any "little anecdotes", and people who LIVE here know you don't know what you're talking about. You also haven't addressed all my rebuttals to your regurgitation of standard leftwing talking points.

It is funny how you never post any proof yet continually demand it from others. I have already given you several pieces (including an academic paper) and several statements from notable figures who have done research in the field. Do you have any proof or will you just falsely keep saying I haven't provided any? (and you aren't fooling any logical person here as they can clearly see which one of us two has actually posted solid proof and which one is strongly supported in economic academia vs. which one just has a couple talking points supported by nothing other than his own racist, elitist, and illogical views).

Patrick · Sep 21, 2011

myp said:
It is funny how you never post any proof yet continually demand it from others.

It's funny how deteached your perception is from reality.

I have already given you several pieces (including an academic paper) and several statements from notable figures who have done research in the field.

You gave one apparently virus-infected paper, plus opinion pieces. You've got nothing. You're FANTASIZING you have proof - it's actually kind of scary.

David · Sep 21, 2011

Patrick said:
You gave one apparently virus-infected paper, plus opinion pieces. You've got nothing. You're FANTASIZING you have proof - it's actually kind of scary.

A pdf isn't a virus my computer illiterate friend.

The "fence" is a horrible idea

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