Illegal to fail students if they believe in certain myths as opposed to facts?

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This explains much of the differing realities between you two....MYP seems to be focused on what has been studied and verified to an extent, whereas you come from a theological background which by every definition in science cannot be verified.

There is absolutely no evidence to confirm creation and simply cannot be. There is ample evidence indicating Evolutionary Theory, though incomplete explains much of the natural order on Earth. Given the need to educate within schools, and the above realities, it seems to me we have no choice but to teach Evolution if we are to be fair to our children.

Just a Theory
In laymen terms a 'theory' is something of which is just a guess. In scientific terms a 'theory' is an explanation based on empirical evidence of how/why something occurred or works. The scientific equivalent to the laymen use of the word 'theory' would be the word 'hypothesis'. If something is "just a hypothesis" then we would not have reason to accept it as anything more than just a guess. Saying that something is "just" a theory means it is a proven explanation. The 'theory of evolution' is the explanation of how the fact of evolution occurs just as the 'theory of gravity' explains how the fact of gravity occurs.


Are Scientists Switching To Creationism?
Almost every single scientist in fields related to the history of life agree that evolution is a fact. A 1991 Gallup poll of Americans found that only about 5% of scientists identified themselves as creationists. However, this number includes those working in fields not related to life origins (such as computer scientists, mechanical engineers, etc.). Taking into account only those working in the relevant fields of earth and life sciences, there are about 480,000 scientists, but only about 700 believe in creationism or consider it a valid theory (Robinson 1995). This means that less than 0.15 percent of relevant scientists believe in creationism. And that is just in the United States, which has more creationists than any other industrialized country. In other countries, the number of relevant scientists who accept creationism drops to less than one tenth of one percent.
Micro & Macro Evolution
The only difference between Micro and Macro evolution is time. Macro and Micro evolution have little to nothing to do with appearances. Changes are accumulated to the DNA every time it is passed on during reproduction. If the accumulated changes on a genetic level causes organisms to be unable to reproduce with each other they are defined as separate species. These changes are a case of Macro evolution. If the changes do not make the DNA too different to prevent the organisms from reproducing with each other it is a case of Micro evolution.

Micro-Evolution = changes within a species
Macro-Evolution = changers across multiple species
Species = Organisms that are able to breed among themselves

Can't Explain Where Life Came From
True, the explanation of how life evolved cannot explain where life came from just as the theory of gravity can not explain how an object which is falling was first created. The theory of evolution has nothing to do with where life come from, only with how that life evolves. There are however various explanations to how life most likely formed through natural means incase you were wondering.

I come from a a theological back ground yes, but I dint identify with it. For personal reasons, I agree that evolution should be taught in schools for the very astute reasons you presented them, (my complements). Thank you for explaining, I do understand that theory is a logical explanation of events based on evidence. I never said it wasn't valid.

I agree worth evolution, I don't know why myp thought I didn't, its more likely than man just popping into existence a few thousand years ago on a week old planet. I still say that I don't know, I think this or that but to know, I don't believe I ever will, i rather like that.

I don't think that it is necessary to teach fact but to give kids the ability to verify things that they question and that it is okay to question, this was the approach that was used in my school. even religion, a Jesuit school that encouraged its students to question even religious beliefs, as well as science and mathematics and so on. I think this is what is missing from public schools, I have found graduates of public schools don't know the bill of rights the history of prior American revolution, algebra. So I don't know if this teaching of facts is really a good way to go.

Seems what is missing is guidance. That is what I respect the Jesuit school for doing in my opinion better than any other form of education that I was part of.
 

myp

Jan 2009
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I went to a Jesuit school, 95% of my class had doctorates within 9 years of graduating, they all attended theology classes and were taught creation in history class. So I don't know your merits

Well maybe that is your problem (not meant as a sign of disrespect, but just an observation). You clearly don't understand the scientific method (my methodology of choice) as it is all about questioning and always questioning. But that does not mean fact isn't still fact- at least until it is disproven. Evolution, like all other scientific theories, became a theory because of the heavy evidence to support it- the burden of proof now lies on those rejecting it, not those accepting it. Either way, even if we don't know 100% (again do you really know anything 100% other than that you exist?), it is still fact and should be taught in schools. Creationism is myth and students should get penalized for substituting it for evolution on tests, etc. Just like they get penalized for misrepresenting other facts on tests whether they be about science or history or whatever. To question is one thing, but then to reject that schools should teach knowledge beyond just procedural knowledge (which of course is very important too), is probably doing a great disservice to our students- thankfully most schools do teach facts along with ways of how to look at problems.
 
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Well maybe that is your problem (not meant as a sign of disrespect, but just an observation). You clearly don't understand the scientific method (my methodology of choice) as it is all about questioning and always questioning. But that does not mean fact isn't still fact- at least until it is disproven. Evolution, like all other scientific theories, became a theory because of the heavy evidence to support it- the burden of proof now lies on those rejecting it, not those accepting it. Either way, even if we don't know 100% (again do you really know anything 100% other than that you exist?), it is still fact and should be taught in schools. Creationism is myth and students should get penalized for substituting it for evolution on tests, etc. Just like they get penalized for misrepresenting other facts on tests whether they be about science or history or whatever. To question is one thing, but then to reject that schools should teach knowledge beyond just procedural knowledge (which of course is very important too), is probably doing a great disservice to our students- thankfully most schools do teach facts along with ways of how to look at problems.
One comment then I am off this topic.

Creationism requires faith. Those who feel "Creationism is myth" just don't have the faith to deal with it or understand it. Therefore they would want anyone of "faith" to be just wrong. Why? Because it does not fit into their particular box of understanding. Just as people of faith don't want to see anything other than what their faith tells them is true.

As far as penalizing students for their faith, just another attack on religion. Many people just want religion of any kind to go away. It has been around and under attack for thousands of years. It will not just go away.

No disrespect intended. Ever notice that is what people say just before they disrespect you?:D
 
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myp

Jan 2009
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Creationism requires faith. Those who feel "Creationism is myth" just don't have the faith to deal with it or understand it. Therefore they would want anyone of "faith" to be just wrong. Why? Because it does not fit into their particular box of understanding. Just as people of faith don't want to see anything other than what their faith tells them is true.

The question becomes should faith be able to override anything? If my faith said 1+1=3, should that be acceptable too? Maybe in my own home, but certainly not in schools.

As far as penalizing students for their faith, just another attack on religion. Many people just want religion of any kind to go away. It has been around and under attack for thousands of years. It will not just go away.
Keeping religion out of public schools is not an attack on religion. Forcing religious alternatives in schools is actually the opposite- an attack on separation of church and state. Founders like Jefferson would have turned in their graves. But more importantly to me, teaching 1+1=3 is a great disservice to our children and our society as a whole. Whether or not the creationists like it, it is the idea of evolution and not creationism that has directly led to breakthroughs that we all can agree have had a net positive on society- things like healthcare breakthroughs, and genetic modification of plants- and the future points to more and more of that as the benefits are tremendous, especially with personalized medicine, pharmacogenomics, etc. Even if evolution is not true, it seems to be true and certainly of utility in the realm through which industry is currently using it- think of it like Newtonian physics and how that was used with great utility for many decades (and still is) despite being wrong in the end- it served a good approximation for our uses (and still does).
 
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The question becomes should faith be able to override anything? If my faith said 1+1=3, should that be acceptable too? Maybe in my own home, but certainly not in schools.


Keeping religion out of public schools is not an attack on religion. Forcing religious alternatives in schools is actually the opposite- an attack on separation of church and state. Founders like Jefferson would have turned in their graves. But more importantly to me, teaching 1+1=3 is a great disservice to our children and our society as a whole. Whether or not the creationists like it, it is the idea of evolution and not creationism that has directly led to breakthroughs that we all can agree have had a net positive on society- things like healthcare breakthroughs, and genetic modification of plants- and the future points to more and more of that as the benefits are tremendous, especially with personalized medicine, pharmacogenomics, etc. Even if evolution is not true, it seems to be true and certainly of utility in the realm through which industry is currently using it- think of it like Newtonian physics and how that was used with great utility for many decades (and still is) despite being wrong in the end- it served a good approximation for our uses (and still does).

Again this mathematical over simplification, what religion teaches 1+1=3? Why would that be a religious tenet?

this is why I said that you don't understand the argument I or even dodge pose, no disrespect intended, how could you build a religion around a flawed mathematical sentence? You suggest creation is flawed, frankly I don't see how it interferes with evolution, academics or science. My science teacher was in a religious school, he explained that it is important to question everything. I don't think you understand people that participate in religion. Very few join religions that violate logic, do you think all religions violate logic completely? (I am just asking)
 
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frankly I don't see how it interferes with evolution, academics or science......snip....

It does not in any way interfere with the theory of Evolution, as the two are not mutually exclusive. It does however delve into the basic premise of the scientific process that has led to the acceptance of this theory
Evolution has been accepted due the Massive data that have been studied, verified, and proven to be as accurate as we can manage.

Creation has an old book of highly disputable accuracy, known to have been adjusted many times, written by flawed humans dictating the thoughts of something we still do not understand and likely never will.



Think I need to go with the stuff that makes sense to me.
 

myp

Jan 2009
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Again this mathematical over simplification, what religion teaches 1+1=3? Why would that be a religious tenet?
You have said your methodology consists of merely picking and choosing what to believe regardless of the data behind something. Well, guess what? I have a viewpoint that says 1+1=3 just like you might have a viewpoint where evolution is not real. If we go by your methodology, I can reject all data and believe 1+1=3, but that does not mean that is what should be taught in schools or that I shouldn't get marked off for writing that on a test. That is my whole point.

do you think all religions violate logic completely? (I am just asking)
Certain aspects of organized religion- yes. And I was raised a religious kid, so spare me the "you don't understand religion" stuff- my grandmother who played an integral role in raising me is quite religious. In general though, scientists are probably the most questioning of any group in the world and religion probably the opposite- you are expected to blindly believe old scriptures written by humans. At the end of the day, I see this pushback on evolution as very similar to the pushback the Church tried with regards to Copernicus and Earth's position in the universe- eventually they gave in there when they realized they were living a lie and the creationists will probably do that here too- it is just a matter of when. Until then the backwards ideologues will keep blabbing and I will stand for scientific progress and data and push back when they try to change the schools which my children will attend for the worse. Think evolution is in fact false or that creationism has enough data to suggest its validity on a fact-based science test? Show me the data.
 
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"
The Pontifical Academy of Sciences is holding a conference on astrobiology, the study of life beyond Earth, with scientists and religious leaders gathering in Rome this week.
For centuries, theologians have argued over what the existence of life elsewhere in the universe would mean for the Church: at least since Giordano Bruno, an Italian monk, was put to death by the Inquisition in 1600 for claiming that other worlds exist.
Among other things, extremely alien-looking aliens would be hard to fit with the idea that God “made man in his own image”.
Furthermore, Jesus Christ’s role as saviour would be confused: would other worlds have their own, tentacled Christ-figures, or would Earth’s Christ be universal?
However, just as the Church eventually made accommodations after Copernicus and Galileo showed that the Earth was not the centre of the universe, and when it belatedly accepted the truth of Darwin’s theory of evolution, Catholic leaders say that alien life can be aligned with the Bible’s teachings."
Vatican accepts Darwinism and now holds a conference on Alien life | Follow The Money
 
Feb 2013
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You have said your methodology consists of merely picking and choosing what to believe regardless of the data behind something. Well, guess what? I have a viewpoint that says 1+1=3 just like you might have a viewpoint where evolution is not real. If we go by your methodology, I can reject all data and believe 1+1=3, but that does not mean that is what should be taught in schools or that I shouldn't get marked off for writing that on a test. That is my whole point.
you still don't understand my methodology, technically it is human methodology. I never suggested that evolution not be taught in schools I grow tired of repeating myself. This is human methodology, take human A, he wants to be in the academic world and holds being a student and observing and creating theories as the most important thing that man does. I am thrilled that there are people that do this, they are in the forefront of understanding humanity on a biological, chemical, and evolutionary basis, we need people that think this way, i cannot be among them, I appreciate physics and mathematics but the study of evolution and biology isn't for me.

Then you have person B, he grew up in a religious household and sure he understands that religion isn't academic and doesn't wish it to be. He devotees his life to serving the poor and unfortunate, the ones sick with things that the person As of the world haven't managed to figure out, he understands that medicine is the fruit of the toils of people who understand things which he doesn't. And in the mean time if he shows kindness to to people that are suffering, not because he fears his God but because he sees his God in the people he cares for. His belief in things that aren't scientific makes him better at that than sometime who doesn't see.

To me at least these two extreme ends of the spectrum are both very important and to use academia to stomp out person B's motivation is wrong, it is to negate humanity for the satisfaction of being right.

Oddly enough the methodology of both person A and person B is the same, they just have differing goals. They choose what to accept as fact based on what the accepted fact is in their respective social professional realms, it isn't wrong it is right.

I fall in the person C category, I don't like it, I wish I could be one so convicted to his beliefs. This is the philosopher, my methodology is that methodology is pointless because there its no fact no truth just what is and how we interpret it, I did very poorly in college because I continually questioned why facts were facts and viewed people that accepted them as facts as lazy, but later I realized it was smart not lazy, to simply accept something makes it easier to apply that to a principle or a conclusion. This means I am a fantastic business man, but my first love of physics was out of my reach, I questioned the language too much. But I am happy, I feel that I am successful.

Certain aspects of organized religion- yes. And I was raised a religious kid, so spare me the "you don't understand religion" stuff- my grandmother who played an integral role in raising me is quite religious. In general though, scientists are probably the most questioning of any group in the world and religion probably the opposite- you are expected to blindly believe old scriptures written by humans. At the end of the day, I see this pushback on evolution as very similar to the pushback the Church tried with regards to Copernicus and Earth's position in the universe- eventually they gave in there when they realized they were living a lie and the creationists will probably do that here too- it is just a matter of when. Until then the backwards ideologues will keep blabbing and I will stand for scientific progress and data and push back when they try to change the schools which my children will attend for the worse. Think evolution is in fact false or that creationism has enough data to suggest its validity on a fact-based science test? Show me the data.
You really don't understand religion, I know monks, monks that completely accept evolution. They understand and agree that scripture was written by man. And that it isn't infallible. One in particular that remains devout in his service to his fellow man that even thinks that scripture isn't the word of God, but the word of man about God.

You confuse religion with the justification people use to to hate things, simply following man made rules is easier than taking things on faith. So many Christians muslims and Jews give up their inquisitive nature, one that is celebrated and encouraged in all three religious books of the respective religions afore mentioned, then you have Buddhism and Hinduism that do not have strict rules created by its members to outcast those that don't belong, all are literally welcome.

also religion will not be pushed away, it will simply evolve as it always does, catholic church survived the copernicus business and grew to accept his discovery, you expect them to be completely supportive of science, yet you repeatedly say that they don't belong in the classroom. You don't seek religion for mundane science just like you don't go to school for spiritual enlightenment. But both are necessary.

I also do not think for one minuet that the religion side its absolutely right in this, they silk kick and scream and resist completely until it is put to this point, accept this science or fall in to obscurity of history like alchemy and phenology did, like a spills child they grudgingly accept what they must to continue their existence.
 
Feb 2013
1,219
174
just past the moons of Jupiter
"
The Pontifical Academy of Sciences is holding a conference on astrobiology, the study of life beyond Earth, with scientists and religious leaders gathering in Rome this week.
For centuries, theologians have argued over what the existence of life elsewhere in the universe would mean for the Church: at least since Giordano Bruno, an Italian monk, was put to death by the Inquisition in 1600 for claiming that other worlds exist.
Among other things, extremely alien-looking aliens would be hard to fit with the idea that God “made man in his own image”.
Furthermore, Jesus Christ’s role as saviour would be confused: would other worlds have their own, tentacled Christ-figures, or would Earth’s Christ be universal?
However, just as the Church eventually made accommodations after Copernicus and Galileo showed that the Earth was not the centre of the universe, and when it belatedly accepted the truth of Darwin’s theory of evolution, Catholic leaders say that alien life can be aligned with the Bible’s teachings."
Vatican accepts Darwinism and now holds a conference on Alien life | Follow The Money

Interesting, I love the ancient astronaut concept, it is really possible that DNA was brought here on an asteroid, there are many that contain organic compounds which almost certainly suggests that such compounds would exist else where in the cosmos. And that there could be countless earths our even vastly different planets with things that will restructure our understanding of what life is. As far as something like a Wookie, or a Klingon having their own religion, of course they would, it may even be a better representation of God than we have. There are multiple religions in this world, you don't need intergalactic beings to understand what will occur, just lol at the Piktish tribes in amciant Brittan, their customs were simply assimilated into a more universal religion, at the time was christianity. Ever wonder why we celebrate Christmas in December?

I think an intelligent alien making contact with us will make us question everything we ever knew about ourselves or our universe, of they come here surly they have a higher understanding than we do. And that includes notions of what or if God is. Of course I definitely think some will call the potential visitors evil or a work against God. As is the case in any progressive step, some like to believe totality is their perception of it.
 
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It does not in any way interfere with the theory of Evolution, as the two are not mutually exclusive. It does however delve into the basic premise of the scientific process that has led to the acceptance of this theory
Evolution has been accepted due the Massive data that have been studied, verified, and proven to be as accurate as we can manage.

Creation has an old book of highly disputable accuracy, known to have been adjusted many times, written by flawed humans dictating the thoughts of something we still do not understand and likely never will.



Think I need to go with the stuff that makes sense to me.

I completely agree, i still have to go with I don't know, but I agree on your assessment of evolution.

However, I don't think religion is worthless, i actually believe it is an evolutionary necessity. And I don't think out is right for schools to suggest people that agree are idiots. I am not saying teach the Bible, or even opt out, but don't stamp out something that makes us human, that is all.
 

myp

Jan 2009
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you still don't understand my methodology, technically it is human methodology. I never suggested that evolution not be taught in schools I grow tired of repeating myself. This is human methodology, take human A, he wants to be in the academic world and holds being a student and observing and creating theories as the most important thing that man does. I am thrilled that there are people that do this, they are in the forefront of understanding humanity on a biological, chemical, and evolutionary basis, we need people that think this way, i cannot be among them, I appreciate physics and mathematics but the study of evolution and biology isn't for me.

Then you have person B, he grew up in a religious household and sure he understands that religion isn't academic and doesn't wish it to be. He devotees his life to serving the poor and unfortunate, the ones sick with things that the person As of the world haven't managed to figure out, he understands that medicine is the fruit of the toils of people who understand things which he doesn't. And in the mean time if he shows kindness to to people that are suffering, not because he fears his God but because he sees his God in the people he cares for. His belief in things that aren't scientific makes him better at that than sometime who doesn't see.

To me at least these two extreme ends of the spectrum are both very important and to use academia to stomp out person B's motivation is wrong, it is to negate humanity for the satisfaction of being right.

Oddly enough the methodology of both person A and person B is the same, they just have differing goals. They choose what to accept as fact based on what the accepted fact is in their respective social professional realms, it isn't wrong it is right.

I fall in the person C category, I don't like it, I wish I could be one so convicted to his beliefs. This is the philosopher, my methodology is that methodology is pointless because there its no fact no truth just what is and how we interpret it, I did very poorly in college because I continually questioned why facts were facts and viewed people that accepted them as facts as lazy, but later I realized it was smart not lazy, to simply accept something makes it easier to apply that to a principle or a conclusion. This means I am a fantastic business man, but my first love of physics was out of my reach, I questioned the language too much. But I am happy, I feel that I am successful.


You really don't understand religion, I know monks, monks that completely accept evolution. They understand and agree that scripture was written by man. And that it isn't infallible. One in particular that remains devout in his service to his fellow man that even thinks that scripture isn't the word of God, but the word of man about God.

You confuse religion with the justification people use to to hate things, simply following man made rules is easier than taking things on faith. So many Christians muslims and Jews give up their inquisitive nature, one that is celebrated and encouraged in all three religious books of the respective religions afore mentioned, then you have Buddhism and Hinduism that do not have strict rules created by its members to outcast those that don't belong, all are literally welcome.

also religion will not be pushed away, it will simply evolve as it always does, catholic church survived the copernicus business and grew to accept his discovery, you expect them to be completely supportive of science, yet you repeatedly say that they don't belong in the classroom. You don't seek religion for mundane science just like you don't go to school for spiritual enlightenment. But both are necessary.

I also do not think for one minuet that the religion side its absolutely right in this, they silk kick and scream and resist completely until it is put to this point, accept this science or fall in to obscurity of history like alchemy and phenology did, like a spills child they grudgingly accept what they must to continue their existence.

You again misrepresent my views as anti-religion when they are not. All I am saying is facts are facts and myths are myths as far as school in concerned. What you do in your private home, I could care less about. The founders seemed to have agreed- what with the separation of church and state and all. That is why this law is nonsense. You can keep questioning everything philosophically, but if you let that bring you to a point where you don't act on anything because everything is questionable, then you don't make progress. The fact that civilization, technology, and what we know has progressed, shows that even when there might be some doubt, there is relatively less doubt in some things than others and acting on those more "sure" things can pay off. And that is a part of what school is- it isn't a philosophical circle in which we just question and question and try not to answer anything. After all, the world is not like that and the children amongst other things are being prepared to live in the real world. Furthermore, if they are taught of nothing or don't know anything about what civilization currently knows, then how can they question it to begin with?

But this is really getting far more philosophical than I care to discuss. My point is that the creationists are like the church against copernicus- you can call it an "evolution" of the church when they finally give up, but I'll just call it what it is- rejecting facts and being backwards. Your opinion is yours and mine is mine and we can leave that at that. And that is to say nothing against Christianity or religion because I know many, many people who are Christians or of other religions but do not buy into that nonsense or the idea that a kid should be allowed to write it on a test and not get penalized for it.
 
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You again misrepresent my views as anti-religion when they are not. All I am saying is facts are facts and myths are myths as far as school in concerned. What you do in your private home, I could care less about. The founders seemed to have agreed- what with the separation of church and state and all. That is why this law is nonsense. You can keep questioning everything philosophically, but if you let that bring you to a point where you don't act on anything because everything is questionable, then you don't make progress. The fact that civilization, technology, and what we know has progressed, shows that even when there might be some doubt, there is relatively less doubt in some things than others and acting on those more "sure" things can pay off. And that is a part of what school is- it isn't a philosophical circle in which we just question and question and try not to answer anything. After all, the world is not like that and the children amongst other things are being prepared to live in the real world. Furthermore, if they are taught of nothing or don't know anything about what civilization currently knows, then how can they question it to begin with?
And you misunderstand my position as the complete rejection of all academia as you have continually done. Once again you don't understand my argument this response makes that perfectly clear.

I give up, you will reject everything I say and substitute in your make believe or some Christian fundamentalism. I am again growing bored with debating you, I have no idea on how to help you understand my position if you ever cared to. But your substituting of my position for the one you concoct is increasingly frustrating. Debate breaks down when I have to reportedly have to explain something to no avail.

This Iss the last time i am going to say this. Not failing someone because they adhere to religious is not the same as completely chucking academia, it isn't even bringing religion into the school, it is respecting the beliefs of people.

You continue to rant and rave about deportation of church and state, that isn't even relevant being that I never suggested we merge them. I Don't even know what your problem is with this, it dissent say that evolution is wrong, I never said it was.

If you misrepresent my argument again I am done with you. Debate isn't one person constantly explaining how the other doesn't understand their argument and the other person making no effort to argue against that point.


But this is really getting far more philosophical than I care to discuss. My point is that the creationists are like the church against copernicus- you can call it an "evolution" of the church when they finally give up, but I'll just call it what it is- rejecting facts and being backwards. Your opinion is yours and mine is mine and we can leave that at that. And that is to say nothing against Christianity or religion because I know many, many people who are Christians or of other religions but do not buy into that nonsense or the idea that a kid should be allowed to write it on a test and not get penalized for it.
You think they are backward you are prejudiced, that is a very derogatory thing to say very disrespectful and rude. If you can't handle philosophy in debate, presuppose you should find another hobby, because debates on this matter are often philosophical.
 

myp

Jan 2009
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It is quite amazing that you don't see how this law plays a role in a much larger issue. That is why you fail to see the implications it has on church and state (more specifically church and public schools) as well as what it has on the way that we as a civilization determine fact and look at the world. You seem to think this sort of thing happens in a vacuum, but it really doesn't- for one, courts use precedent as a means of ruling all the time.

As for philosophy, I just don't want to get into that with you- partly because a lot of it is opinion and that deters from the matter of fact and fiction at hand in this law. And you can say my view on creationists is rude, but I'll call a charlatan a charlatan any day, especially when it affects my children and the future of society. I am sure you have no problem calling out snakeoil salesmen- same idea.
 
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It is quite amazing that you don't see how this law plays a role in a much larger issue. That is why you fail to see the implications it has on church and state (more specifically church and public schools) as well as what it has on the way that we as a civilization determine fact and look at the world. You seem to think this sort of thing happens in a vacuum, but it really doesn't- for one, courts use precedent as a means of ruling all the time.
Once again the deputation of church and state isn't even involved here, it isn't about teaching religion, religion entering schools (anymore than it already does). It is only about teachers not using academics to stamp out some one's beliefs. The fact that you don't see the first amendment violation the other way. Or that you think religious people need to pay lip service to evolution even if they don't accept it.


As for philosophy, I just don't want to get into that with you- partly because a lot of it is opinion and that deters from the matter of fact and fiction at hand in this law. And you can say my view on creationists is rude, but I'll call a charlatan a charlatan any day, especially when it affects my children and the future of society. I am sure you have no problem calling out snakeoil salesmen- same idea.
That is exactly why you don't really understand this debate, out is almost purely philosophy. You call religious people charlatans, clearly you have some prejudice. Your inability to see people as equal is the reason why you don't understand this debate. And frankly you have just lost my respect. You think calling people that disagree with you are charlatans.

There is really nothing left to talk about. its really all very clearly stated above. People are charlatans if they don't accept everything you say as absolute fact. why did you even post this? Why are you even in a discussion forum? All I seem to get from you is that everybody is wrong if they argue with you. You ban people that don't submit. Please ban me I don't wish to be a pawn in your continued prejudice.
 

myp

Jan 2009
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It is only about teachers not using academics to stamp out some one's beliefs.

Again, if you believe 1+1=3, that should not be accepted in school either. But you just like to pick and choose what to believe and despite believing that everyone picks and chooses, you think your interpretation is right in that 1+1=3 should be marked off and creationism shouldn't- ironic if you really think everyone is just picking and choosing.

That is exactly why you don't really understand this debate, out is almost purely philosophy. You call religious people charlatans, clearly you have some prejudice. Your inability to see people as equal is the reason why you don't understand this debate. And frankly you have just lost my respect. You think calling people that disagree with you are charlatans.

Go read the posts again. I called creationists charlatans, not religious people. You love the straw men don't you :p

There is really nothing left to talk about. its really all very clearly stated above. People are charlatans if they don't accept everything you say as absolute fact. why did you even post this? Why are you even in a discussion forum? All I seem to get from you is that everybody is wrong if they argue with you. You ban people that don't submit. Please ban me I don't wish to be a pawn in your continued prejudice.

No one was banned for disagreeing- they were banned for breaking rules. And who made you the debate moderator/judge here to say that what you think matters is what matters in the debate or to question why I post something, etc.? :p
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
Now neither of us are constitutional experts and even if we were, let's leave it to the courts to decide. In the meantime I will keep voicing my opinion against the charlatans- can you respect that? I respect your decision to support this nonsense even though I disagree with it.
 
Feb 2013
1,219
174
just past the moons of Jupiter
Again, if you believe 1+1=3, that should not be accepted in school either. But you just like to pick and choose what to believe and despite believing that everyone picks and chooses, you think your interpretation is right in that 1+1=3 should be marked off and creationism shouldn't- ironic if you really think everyone is just picking and choosing.



Go read the posts again. I called creationists charlatans, not religious people. You love the straw men don't you :p



No one was banned for disagreeing- they were banned for breaking rules. And who made you the debate moderator/judge here to say that what you think matters is what matters in the debate or to question why I post something, etc.? :p

Enough of your grandstanding, is there anything that would convince you that your original position wasn't correct?
 
Feb 2013
1,219
174
just past the moons of Jupiter
Now neither of us are constitutional experts and even if we were, let's leave it to the courts to decide. In the meantime I will keep voicing my opinion against the charlatans- can you respect that? I respect your decision to support this nonsense even though I disagree with it.

Who you deem is a charlatan is just your opinion. And you are lying, you don't respect my opinion if you did you wouldn't call it nonsense. Its sad that laws have to be created to further reinforce the first amendment from people like you but your display proves we need this law.

I am not interested in debating with you any longer this entire thread was nothing but you making up your mind and then you being disrespectful to anyone that disagrees.

You are prejudiced therefore you're opinion is tainted and your credibility not valid. You can't be objective, you aren't credible you are biased.


I will continue voicing my opinion against charlatans also.
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
Who you deem is a charlatan is just your opinion. And you are lying, you don't respect my opinion if you did you wouldn't call it nonsense. Its sad that laws have to be created to further reinforce the first amendment from people like you but your display proves we need this law.

It is funny that you think you know more about how I feel than I do- that says something. (regarding me respecting your opinion)

As for the law at hand, if anything it is unconstitutional, not the other way around because of separation of church and state. The 1st amendment doesn't apply to schools in case you didn't know- you can't go into a public school and say obscenities without punishment, for example. And you certainly can't go preach about creationism. But this isn't even about preaching- it is about tests, etc. and wrong answers are wrong answers- wrong answers are also not protected by 1st amendment rights :p

I am not interested in debating with you any longer
Then stop responding?

You are prejudiced therefore you're opinion is tainted and your credibility not valid. You can't be objective, you aren't credible you are biased.
Again, what makes you the judge of this debate? I can say these same things about you.

I will continue voicing my opinion against charlatans also.
Might want to start by looking at the data to see what is real and what is not :giggle:
 
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