The revised Boehner bill passed the House and now heads to the Senate where Harry Reid will now decide on voting it through with compromises or putting it aside and voting on his own bill. The madness isn't over just yet...
http://www.votesmart.org/resource_govt101_02.php
That's what needs to happen and it needs to actually be the same bill. If it get's modified or killed and replaced then they'll have to start over until they can agree and then it still needs to meet Obama's approval... 3days left, e're screwed. :help:
If it's the same bill (and the sides have radically different demands). If they kill it and do their own then it's back to the House to approve (or worse amend) it. And then Obama still needs to approve it himself. I'd say we were in the clear if this was 1.5 weeks ago but we're 3 days out and even if they passed a bill today we'll still suffer the effects of a near miss and end up having this fight in 6 months or a year (depending on who wins that argument) from now.
Look at my edit above^ if it is a similar purposed bill it is fine- they just go in conference and compromise to get a final bill. They did it with the healthcare bill too.
Also, the 3 days is not necessarily a 100% deadline as there is a possibility we can still go for a bit more without a ceiling hike depending on revenues in and money out as well as who might accept late payments. They are going to go til the last minute on this one...
Also, the 3 days is not necessarily a 100% deadline as there is a possibility we can still go for a bit more without a ceiling hike depending on revenues in and money out as well as who might accept late payments. They are going to go til the last minute on this one...
Oh China, Japan and the banks will get their money, the economy and any chance at more lones demand it. It's the creditors that won't foreclose on America (the gov't itself and bondholders) that'll get screwed. Alas this is the majority of our debt (70% I think, I could be wrong) and would lead to a gov't shutdown. Tell me, how long do you think people will pay taxes while getting nothing back before they start to voting with bullets? And this is no tinfoil hat nutter talk, historically gov'ts that only have the support of 33% or 16% (depending on the mood of the people) of the pop get dragged into the streets and shot, we're the exception that proves the rule it seems.
Japan- probably because of their debt worries right now. China? Eh, you never know- they hold too much to let it all just fall like that and even a couple of defaults means the rest of the debt tanks- its the bind they've been in for the past few years. The Fed? Yea, they will probably just say no thanks to payments until it is all said and done.
As for voting for bullets, let's not jump ahead of ourselves- we've been in similar crises before Plus most of the time the bullets fly is when people can't feed themselves (and aren't preoccupied with Kim Kardashian's next move instead of the future of their children).
I am not sure we will even pass the deadline though- I still see a deal getting done.
As for voting for bullets, let's not jump ahead of ourselves- we've been in similar crises before
Plus most of the time the bullets fly is when people can't feed themselves (and aren't preoccupied with Kim Kardashian's next move instead of the future of their children).I am not sure we will even pass the deadline though- I still see a deal getting done.
Japan- probably because of their debt worries right now. China? Eh, you never know- they hold too much to let it all just fall like that and even a couple of defaults means the rest of the debt tanks- its the bind they've been in for the past few years. The Fed? Yea, they will probably just say no thanks to payments until it is all said and done.
As for voting for bullets, let's not jump ahead of ourselves- we've been in similar crises before
I am not sure we will even pass the deadline though- I still see a deal getting done.
No, we haven't. This is the 1st time we've ever come to the brink. The stock market is already in a nose dive and there's talk of downgrading us even with a deal. If we default people aren't going to just sit by as they lose their paychecks to taxes yet don't even have police protection. People will rise up and unless they crackdown with force (like they did last time a major populist uprising broke out), which i don't think they have the will to do, they will lose control of the situation. It might not be civil war but there will be mass rioting over redundant taxes. I mean I'm for raising taxes but I'll be right there with a TP crazy if I'm just paying to pay.
We have defaulted and "semi defaulted" before a couple times. A downgrade would hurt us, but again it wouldn't mean the end of anything- it would just push more fiscally conservative policy. It would be a huge deal no doubt, but not collapse as you seem to think. The stock market has gone down as it always does with potentially bad news- just people pricing it in, no problem there (it hasn't exactly plummeted either and I'm in the camp that it is inflated b/c of QE anyway).
As for losing paychecks to taxes and not having police protection- where are you getting all that from? Who said that is what happens? If we can't pay our debts, the Treasury defaults on its obligations- people's paychecks don't get seized
As for losing paychecks to taxes and not having police protection- where are you getting all that from? Who said that is what happens? If we can't pay our debts, the Treasury defaults on its obligations- people's paychecks don't get seized
We have defaulted and "semi defaulted" before a couple times. A downgrade would hurt us, but again it wouldn't mean the end of anything- it would just push more fiscally conservative policy. It would be a huge deal no doubt, but not collapse as you seem to think. The stock market has gone down as it always does with potentially bad news- just people pricing it in, no problem there (it hasn't exactly plummeted either and I'm in the camp that it is inflated b/c of QE anyway).
As for losing paychecks to taxes and not having police protection- where are you getting all that from? Who said that is what happens? If we can't pay our debts, the Treasury defaults on its obligations- people's paychecks don't get seized
We've never defaulted before, I don't know where you're getting that from. And I never said paychecks would be sized, I said people would be paying taxes for nothing. The Fed owes itself, that means a default results in a gov't shutdown as things like SS suddenly find their funding going up in smoke. That means no SS, medicaid, medicare, military pay, teacher pay, police pay, etc. The gov't will still collect the taxes but the programs and agencies those taxes pay for will be shutdown. As soon as people realize this they'll react. If a double dip was all we had to worry about the worry would be confined to Wall St, but this is an existential threat that has even the most apathetic American worrying about a deal not being made in time.
The Treasury has had periods of default in the 1770s, and a couple times in the 1900s (40s and 70s I think). Look it up- it is well known, one was as Bretton Woods ended I think.
As for government shutdown- everything doesn't go away over night. Money that is budgeted and distributed already is already out there. Any revenues coming in also can go to funding the most important of things.
And teacher/police pay? The states and local governments are responsible for those- the Feds don't even have cops (they have the CIA/FBI/etc. yes, but not police).
And on top of all of that, it is not like they can't raise the ceiling should they pass this deadline. They aren't going to sit there and let it not get raised at all. Trust me, before the majority of people even start predicting the things you mention, the politicians will figure it out- they want to get reelected after all.
As for government shutdown- everything doesn't go away over night. Money that is budgeted and distributed already is already out there. Any revenues coming in also can go to funding the most important of things.
And teacher/police pay? The states and local governments are responsible for those- the Feds don't even have cops (they have the CIA/FBI/etc. yes, but not police).
And on top of all of that, it is not like they can't raise the ceiling should they pass this deadline. They aren't going to sit there and let it not get raised at all. Trust me, before the majority of people even start predicting the things you mention, the politicians will figure it out- they want to get reelected after all.
Whether there's a deal or not, or whatever the deal, the damage is already done.
Imagine you were lending me money. I've always paid my bills, and continue to do so.
But now you've noticed I'm down at the bar every night getting drunk as a skunk. You begin to wonder, am I really going to keep paying you back? Really?
"The full faith and credit of the US" means, the willingness and ability of national leaders to manage our finances in a responsible adult manner. More to the point, it is a widely held perception that this is true.
If it was ever in any doubt, it is now clear for all the world to see that our leaders are neither able or willing to do their job.
Imagine that you owned a company, and your management team pulled a stunt like this, endangering your companies credit rating and public reputation, for no reason other than their own internal squabbling.
You'd fire them all on the spot.
Again, we have to make this personal.
If our employees don't get a budget out on schedule...
All payment to them stops. The air conditioning is turned off. Reserved parking spaces go bye bye. All perks and payments are withdrawn.
Do your job...
Or be gone.
Imagine you were lending me money. I've always paid my bills, and continue to do so.
But now you've noticed I'm down at the bar every night getting drunk as a skunk. You begin to wonder, am I really going to keep paying you back? Really?
"The full faith and credit of the US" means, the willingness and ability of national leaders to manage our finances in a responsible adult manner. More to the point, it is a widely held perception that this is true.
If it was ever in any doubt, it is now clear for all the world to see that our leaders are neither able or willing to do their job.
Imagine that you owned a company, and your management team pulled a stunt like this, endangering your companies credit rating and public reputation, for no reason other than their own internal squabbling.
You'd fire them all on the spot.
Again, we have to make this personal.
If our employees don't get a budget out on schedule...
All payment to them stops. The air conditioning is turned off. Reserved parking spaces go bye bye. All perks and payments are withdrawn.
Do your job...
Or be gone.
I hope you are right. But I don't really think any of them knows what they are doing. It is just a game to them. Like basketball. Who scores the most points.
It's a game to get reelected. They'll get it done
(at the least before all hell breaks lose)They'll get it done
All the expert commentators have been saying this from the beginning, but a lot of them are starting to change their tune now.
Imagine me driving a car real fast towards a cliff, with plans to stop just before the edge, so I can impress some chicks.
This is a great plan, if I know what I'm doing.
What we're learning from this circus is that these guys don't know what they're doing. They're in over their heads.
Simple point of fact. NONE of them are going to come out of this looking good. So even if it's just politics, they are still screwing it up big time.
The game is already over, the damage already done, confidence in our financial system has been even further undermined.
Right, and that's the point.
The folks in charge have demonstrated they are willing to play a reckless game of chicken with the U.S. economy, indeed the world economy, for no good reason.
Thus, everybody who was thinking of spending money or hiring an employee now has yet another good reason to question the financial system.
Thus, everybody who is lending us money has already been given ample evidence that we are not the solid investment they thought we were.
Thus, those around the world who have traditionally looked to the U.S. for leadership, are now wondering if maybe they should look elsewhere.
Everybody is focused on the deadline, as if the situation might be salvaged at the last minute of the chicken game.
But the game is already over, the damage is already done.
Everything has game theories- games of chicken happen all the time when interests align as such. It is not a childish thing, it is a very real and heavily studied occurrence in the social sciences (and even some instances in hard sciences).
Now I am no fan of the politicians and they are a sold out bunch, but that too happened because the incentives fell to allow that to happen. And what happens now also happens out of their self-interest, which includes getting reelected and appealing to voters such as you and I. There are a lot of voters who are demanding big cuts (myself included) and that is why there is the struggle in getting the limit passed, but I think most people also realize it needs to be passed, so there is a push from the same people there too (as well as those who think spending isn't a problem).
Oh and what might be more comfortable than voter demands is the special interest demand for an increase too- Wall St. (the big money) wants this- it'll happen, it's only a matter of when.
Now I am no fan of the politicians and they are a sold out bunch, but that too happened because the incentives fell to allow that to happen. And what happens now also happens out of their self-interest, which includes getting reelected and appealing to voters such as you and I. There are a lot of voters who are demanding big cuts (myself included) and that is why there is the struggle in getting the limit passed, but I think most people also realize it needs to be passed, so there is a push from the same people there too (as well as those who think spending isn't a problem).
Oh and what might be more comfortable than voter demands is the special interest demand for an increase too- Wall St. (the big money) wants this- it'll happen, it's only a matter of when.
Yes, murder happens all the time as well, and it's studied by science too.
I'm sorry, apologies, but you're suffering from a sophomoric pseudo intellectual understanding of what's happening.
Here, let's make it real for you.
Start your own company, and invest your money in it. Let's make your family's future dependent on the success of your company.
Now hire me to manage the company. I will manage your money the way Congress is currently managing it.
Watch what happens.
All this game theory talk goes out the window, and you get really mad at me, and fire my ass for playing a pointless game of chicken with your future.
Welcome to the real world.
This is very simple.
We hired some people to manage our public finances in a responsible adult manner, and they are not doing what we hired them to do. If this was a private company, we would fire these employees in a heart beat.
Yes, they disagree. Of course they do.
Their job is to find the middle, fashion a compromise, and make it happen, on time.
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