Do you think religion should be taught at schools?

clax · Dec 8, 2012

tecoyah said:
Indeed they must "interfere" with each other, due to the fundamentally opposing viewpoints. A truly objective and fact based evaluation cannot decide that both are equally valid propositions, as you stated "
one is a choice, the other is a evidence based study". To accept the premise that creation follows, it becomes impossible to believe the evidence for evolution:

Only If the Bible must be taken literally to be able to believe in God. I never saw that rule, biblical text is metaphor, obviously

tecoyah said:
God made man out of mud, and woman out of a piece of man in moments.
~OR~
Man evolved from far less intricate organisms over very long periods of time.

You are taking spiritual text and comparing it to science, I don't believe that creation story us an accurate historical account of the creation of the earth.

I grow absolutely sick of saying I am not a Christian fundamentalist, why do people continue to insist that I must be.

tecoyah said:
God made the Earth out of nothing, and decided to wink the sun into existence because it was too dark
~Or~
The combination gasses and gravitation due to mass led to an eventual collapse of material which began a process of fusion we see all around our universe, forcing material to orbit around this new central mass point. The material over extremely long time frames collides, combines, and settles into a new planet.

Again, a spiritual text written thousands of years ago was never meant to be am actual account, it really isn't ether you completely reject science and believe a completely impossible spiritual text.

For you to even begin to attempt to debate me you must understand that

tecoyah said:
God decided to create plants and animals to inhabit the Earth, and feed his mud people.
~Or~
Over Billions of years, atmospheric interaction with water and carbon changed complex chemicals into something new, forming stable Amino Acids that over extremely long time frames begin to combine into basic RNA. The inevitable result being more complexity and the possibility of life.

I refer you to the last two responses.

Seriously, pretending that everybody that believes in God is a complete fundamentalist is a terriblely poor assumption, it really makes the above argument not only invalid toward what I said, but also incredibly insulting.

If you want to argue against west borough baptist church, go right ahead but don't you dare assume that they speak for me.

clax · Dec 8, 2012

Nemo said:
"But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat: for the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
________________

The Garden of Eden was an mythical paradise in which ignorance was bliss. However, when Adam and Eve were banished from the garden for eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, their ignorance was no excuse for violating God’s commandment. And ever since, their descendants, though the propagation of religious superstition, have been trying to make ignorance into a virtue.

What you don't know about religion is completely astounding.

again a poor attempt at debate based on the assumption that I am a Christian fundamentalist.

Of you insist on debating a fundamentalist, find one, otherwise we have nowhere else to go here.

tecoyah · Dec 8, 2012

clax said:
Only If the Bible must be taken literally to be able to believe in God. I never saw that rule, biblical text is metaphor, obviously

You are taking spiritual text and comparing it to science, I don't believe that creation story us an accurate historical account of the creation of the earth.

I grow absolutely sick of saying I am not a Christian fundamentalist, why do people continue to insist that I must be.

Again, a spiritual text written thousands of years ago was never meant to be am actual account, it really isn't ether you completely reject science and believe a completely impossible spiritual text.

For you to even begin to attempt to debate me you must understand that

I refer you to the last two responses.

Seriously, pretending that everybody that believes in God is a complete fundamentalist is a terriblely poor assumption, it really makes the above argument not only invalid toward what I said, but also incredibly insulting.

If you want to argue against west borough baptist church, go right ahead but don't you dare assume that they speak for me.

No one here misinterprets your understanding of your God, nor are they attacking it. You asked a question in this debate (Not the first time by the way}, and it was answered. If you do not wish to be engaged....I recommend you refrain from posting things like this:

Why is it so impossible to mention evolution without attempting to stomp out religious beliefs, what on earth do these two things have anything to do with one another?

one is a choice, the other is a evidence based study, that do not in the least interfere with each other in an objective person's mind.

The answer may seem to you as an attack on your faith, but if anything that fact makes the answer even more clear.

tecoyah · Dec 8, 2012

Just to clarify, as my reply may still be misinterpreted:

The Creation Story and Evolution theory are diametrically opposed when each is considered unto itself. As this thread is about teaching religion in schools, and led to the the discussion of educating based on fact vs. myth...it is clear one cannot teach children the science behind our observed reality while also teaching them the religious version of history.

The ability to educate our youth in science is confused terribly when attempting to mix myth into the process, and in my opinion should be avoided. However, should a parent choose to do so, there are many religious institutions available that cater to those beliefs to take advantage of. Public Education should not become one of them.

clax · Dec 8, 2012

tecoyah said:
No one here misinterprets your understanding of your God, nor are they attacking it. You asked a question in this debate (Not the first time by the way}, and it was answered. If you do not wish to be engaged....I recommend you refrain from posting things like this:

The answer may seem to you as an attack on your faith, but if anything that fact makes the answer even more clear.

Fact? What fact? The fact that science in some way disproves spirituality? that is absolutely absurd. That is no fact.

Nemo very clearly called believers fools, so the absolute lie that I wasn't attacked is just that a lie. Do not attempt to bs your way around that.

If you don't want me posting, say so, but don't make up opinions and argue against them and pretend they are mine. I absolutely will not stand for that.

clax · Dec 8, 2012

tecoyah said:
Just to clarify, as my reply may still be misinterpreted:

The Creation Story and Evolution theory are diametrically opposed when each is considered unto itself. As this thread is about teaching religion in schools, and led to the the discussion of educating based on fact vs. myth...it is clear one cannot teach children the science behind our observed reality while also teaching them the religious version of history.

Just to clarify my position, it is obvious to anybody that spiritual text is only spiritually valuable, and to assume that people use spiritually inspired text as an educational aid in anything other than spirituality is absurd. And for the thousandth time I have said this, I do not take the creation story literally, stop insisting that I do.

I never once said that there should be religious teachings in school. I just questioned the value of the debate and energy spent on it when graduates from high school are not prepared for college or professional life.

Further more a metaphor cannot be diametrically opposed to science, that very statement is not the least bit true.

A story is not evidence of anything, especially one written thousands of years ago. Sorry the opposition is only a fabrication.

tecoyah said:
The ability to educate our youth in science is confused terribly when attempting to mix myth into the process, and in my opinion should be avoided. However, should a parent choose to do so, there are many religious institutions available that cater to those beliefs to take advantage of. Public Education should not become one of them.

institutions are not at all necessary to teach children, but the school should stick to education and spirituality should be a personal endeavor. You cannot wipe religion clean from education because most of human history us directly influenced by religion.

Again "teaching religion", is a broad, nearly meaningless statement, are you meaning teaching kids to obey a religion or the existence of religion? You need to be clear in your meaning.

tecoyah · Dec 8, 2012

Obviously this is not a worthwhile debate, as we seem to be discussing two completely different issues. Though I understand you feel this is about people seeing you as a fundy, or even that this is centered around some perceived attack on your personal faith...it is not.

The debate is about at it's core....the addition of intelligent Design to current teachings in public schools. In addition we have moved into the validity of Creation Myth vs. Evolution theory. The issue of some attack on you is not the doing of those addressing these issues...it is your interpretation of the discussion.

As it is clear we all agree the creation story is an invalid teaching tool for our children, it would seem the debate is settled. I see no reason to continue the discussion as it seems to be seen as a debasing of you...personally.

I doubt anyone here wishes, or intended to do so.

I apologize for any misunderstanding....for all involved.

clax · Dec 8, 2012

tecoyah said:
Obviously this is not a worthwhile debate, as we seem to be discussing two completely different issues. Though I understand you feel this is about people seeing you as a fundy, or even that this is centered around some perceived attack on your personal faith...it is not.

The debate is about at it's core....the addition of intelligent Design to current teachings in public schools. In addition we have moved into the validity of Creation Myth vs. Evolution theory. The issue of some attack on you is not the doing of those addressing these issues...it is your interpretation of the discussion.

As it is clear we all agree the creation story is an invalid teaching tool for our children, it would seem the debate is settled. I see no reason to continue the discussion as it seems to be seen as a debasing of you...personally.

I doubt anyone here wishes, or intended to do so.

I apologize for any misunderstanding....for all involved.

No, not the addition, but the subtraction.

It is not an invalid teaching tool, but as far as school house education goes we really ought to focus on math and language verses a philosophical debate that really makes little difference.

You did not insult anybody, you are mistaken about religion, I was just explaining that there is a huge number of us who see no conflict between evolution and God, aside from literal meaning in the Bible. Most of the Christians I know don't have any trouble with this. The ones that do are trouble makers, and should be thought of as such. The Bible clearly in proverbs says that people should thirst for understanding.

But as far as school goes, lets focus on necessary skills people need to practically function as adults so as not to need to take remedial classes when entering college.

This evolution "debate" seems like a complete red herring.

myp · Dec 8, 2012

Evolution is scientific fact (including that humans came from lower forms). Creation is religious belief. That is just what it is.

If you disagree then you either don't understand science, you don't accept it, or you are the next Darwin when you disprove evolution for a better theory.

I believe that it is very important for people to understand evolution. It is crucial in healthcare- nurses, docs, pharmacists, etc all learn about it because it is vital in what they do. It is important in understanding one's own health and moving forward it will be more and more important to understand it in order to understand one's healthcare. So, yes, I think it should be necessary that everyone is taught evolution and genetics, at least to some extent.

clax · Dec 8, 2012

myp said:
Evolution is scientific fact (including that humans came from lower forms). Creation is religious belief. That is just what it is.

I never once disagreed with this, ever.

myp said:
If you disagree then you either don't understand science, you don't accept it, or you are the next Darwin when you disprove evolution for a better theory.

Again didn't disagree, but if somebody can concoct a better theory than Darwin, how on earth is it fact? I understand that it is accepted as fact but fact it isn't because a better theory couldn't pally exist, the statement above really is completely telling on who truly understands science.

myp said:
I believe that it is very important for people to understand evolution. It is crucial in healthcare- nurses, docs, pharmacists, etc all learn about it because it is vital in what they do. It is important in understanding one's own health and moving forward it will be more and more important to understand it in order to understand one's healthcare. So, yes, I think it should be necessary that everyone is taught evolution and genetics, at least to some extent.

You believe it is crucial? I do not, two opposing opinions neither is right or wrong.

but it really isn't the topic of this discussion, it is about the teaching of religion in public schools, I think it is important to have competent math skills to simply work at all I'm our society, a place where public schools are desperately lacking.same with reading skills, why waste energy debating this to zero avail?

Nemo · Dec 8, 2012

"We must not omit to notice that the followers of this doctrine, anxious to display their talent in assigning final causes, have imported a new method of argument in proof of their theory - namely, a reduction, not to the impossible, but to ignorance; thus showing that they have no other method of exhibiting their doctrine. For example, if a stone falls from a roof on to someone's head and kills him, they will demonstrate by their new method, that the stone fell in order to kill the man; for, if it had not by God's will fallen with that object, how could so many circumstances (and there are often many concurrent circumstances) have all happened together by chance? Perhaps you will answer that the event is due to the facts that the wind was blowing, and the man was walking that way. ‘But why,’ they will insist, ‘was the wind blowing, and why was the man at that very time walking that way?’ If you again answer, that the wind had then sprung up because the sea had begun to be agitated the day before, the weather being previously calm, and that the man had been invited by a friend, they will again insist: ‘But why was the sea agitated, and why was the man invited at that time?’ So they will pursue their questions from cause to cause, till at last you take refuge in the will of God - in other words, the sanctuary of ignorance."
- Benedictus (Baruch) de Spinoza, The Ethics, Part I, "Concerning God," Appendix (1677)

myp · Dec 8, 2012

clax said:
Again didn't disagree, but if somebody can concoct a better theory than Darwin, how on earth is it fact? I understand that it is accepted as fact but fact it isn't because a better theory couldn't pally exist, the statement above really is completely telling on who truly understands science.

First off, I am saying it is fact, but leaving it open to someone to disprove that. Second, the colloquial definition of theory is not the same as the scientific definition of theory. More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_fact_and_theory

clax said:
but it really isn't the topic of this discussion, it is about the teaching of religion in public schools, I think it is important to have competent math skills to simply work at all I'm our society, a place where public schools are desperately lacking.same with reading skills, why waste energy debating this to zero avail?

So knowing about one's healthcare and health is not important or crucial? I don't know what world you live in...

The scientific fact of evolution should be taught in schools just as the scientific fact of gravity should be (or do you think that shouldn't be taught either?). Creation is belief- leave that to the home.

clax · Dec 8, 2012

myp said:
First off, I am saying it is fact, but leaving it open to someone to disprove that. Second, the colloquial definition of theory is not the same as the scientific definition of theory. More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_fact_and_theory

So knowing about one's healthcare and health is not important or crucial? I don't know what world you live in...

The scientific fact of evolution should be taught in schools just as the scientific fact of gravity should be (or do you think that shouldn't be taught either?). Creation is belief- leave that to the home.

I grow weary of this insisting you have to alter my beliefs so that they oppose yours. I never once said evolution shouldn't be tought in schools, what I said is that it isn't necessary to debate over such a minor detail when high school graduates are not prepared for college. Certainly discuss the formulation of the theory, and the things Darwin looked at to generate such a theory, weigh is merit, even accept it. Frankly I like studying evolution, its rather difficult to find research not bent on debunking religion, but that should never be its goal.

For the last time please READ THIS SO I DON'T HAVE TO KEEP CORRECTING YOU I never once said that religion or belief should take the place of science.

I maintain health without knowing my ansesters. I don't need to study genetics to be a police officer, or a father or a lover. Some may do so, but the amount of energy spent on this isn't conducive to the need. How many people or of the masses that seems public school even need to know about evolution deeply. I understand the basics, because that's all I need to know.

myp · Dec 8, 2012

clax said:
For the last time please READ THIS SO I DON'T HAVE TO KEEP CORRECTING YOU I never once said that religion or belief should take the place of science.

And I never said you said that, so I don't know why you are getting all upset over it

clax said:
I don't need to study genetics to be a police officer, or a father or a lover. ... How many people or of the masses that seems public school even need to know about evolution deeply. I understand the basics, because that's all I need to know.

What are the basics and who defines them? I am saying evolution is a basic. You might not need to study genetics to know how to do the job of a police officer, but you do need to understand it to understand many health treatments and your own body even if you are a police officer. The masses do need to know the basics of things like evolution and genetics because it is important not only to individual wellness but to societal wellness.

clax · Dec 8, 2012

Nemo said:
"We must not omit to notice that the followers of this doctrine, anxious to display their talent in assigning final causes, have imported a new method of argument in proof of their theory - namely, a reduction, not to the impossible, but to ignorance; thus showing that they have no other method of exhibiting their doctrine. For example, if a stone falls from a roof on to someone's head and kills him, they will demonstrate by their new method, that the stone fell in order to kill the man; for, if it had not by God's will fallen with that object, how could so many circumstances (and there are often many concurrent circumstances) have all happened together by chance? Perhaps you will answer that the event is due to the facts that the wind was blowing, and the man was walking that way. ‘But why,’ they will insist, ‘was the wind blowing, and why was the man at that very time walking that way?’ If you again answer, that the wind had then sprung up because the sea had begun to be agitated the day before, the weather being previously calm, and that the man had been invited by a friend, they will again insist: ‘But why was the sea agitated, and why was the man invited at that time?’ So they will pursue their questions from cause to cause, till at last you take refuge in the will of God - in other words, the sanctuary of ignorance."
- Benedictus (Baruch) de Spinoza, The Ethics, Part I, "Concerning God," Appendix (1677)

Again you miss the mask completely because you are attempting to misuse science to disprove religion, these rantings are of little consequence, and your but in insult is noted. I must ask you what does it matter I'd people believe that things happen for a reason? Why are you so bent on calling this thing that has Niko effect on fact whatsoever ignorance. You choose to accept that there is no reason for anything, I am perfectly okay with that, I don't think you're ignorant or incapable of understanding, I don't know what business it is of anybody to say that the belief that the occurrence of things has a philosophical purpose is ignorant or not, on what basis do you make that claim? Because you do not believe? Tell me how is that any different than saying that you are God? By elevating your opinion based on nothing but gut feeling above other opinions based on gut feeling is in fact saying that you yourself are God.

I choose to believe things occur for a reason, you can't say why they don't our even that they don't, what is being lost by this choice? I am really curious!

clax · Dec 8, 2012

myp said:
And I never said you said that, so I don't know why you are getting all upset over it

I get upset just like you do when you don't even bother to try to understand what hi am saying, a skill that is far more important to ones health than an intricate understanding of evolution.

myp said:
What are the basics and who defines them? I am saying evolution is a basic. You might not need to study genetics to know how to do the job of a police officer, but you do need to understand it to understand many health treatments and your own body even if you are a police officer. The masses do need to know the basics of things like evolution and genetics because it is important not only to individual wellness but to societal wellness.

I agree the masses need to understand the theory of evolution, I would say the basics are how Darwin and subsequent others have formulated the theory, the general thesis that through mutation of DNA or adaptation to ones own environment, and this happens enough to have lead us up to where we currently are, and today it is happening (cite examples) and out is reasonable to assume that it will continue to happen.

That's it, really what more is there? That is a single page in a text book.

If you would add anything to third basics I would love to here them.

As far as creation goes one sentence, religions hold that the world was created by a Devine entity. Bit that would be only necessary in the history class.

I think it is very important to understand the puritans view on sin to understand how such an event could occur. It is a fact that they THOUGHT that sin was collective, and by others sinning they THOUGHT that they were all guilty. This doesn't mean they were stupid, just that their culture was heavily influenced by religion, and lack of knowledge made them easy to manipulate. In fact this was hysteria, but the threat was eternal damnation, not potential illness or violence.

David · Dec 8, 2012

Well this thread got off topic. How did 'teaching about religion' turn into 'evolution vs. creation'? This reminds me of philosophical debates being about Hitler vs. Stalin 9 pages later.

clax · Dec 8, 2012

David said:
Well this thread got off topic. How did 'teaching about religion' turn into 'evolution vs. creation'? This reminds me of philosophical debates being about Hitler vs. Stalin 9 pages later.

Really the only part of religion being taught in schools is creation, and out really isn't being taught, just mentioned. Our national moral code is being taught in schools, but honestly that isn't ready religious. Highly debatable subjects that have no real religious meaning such as abortion and gun control may be topics, but like hi said there is no real religious component to those.

myp · Dec 9, 2012

Clax, I don't actually get upset in real life and neither should you. Getting upset over these things is fruitless and could be detrimental to your own health as you said. I get frustrated, but not to the point where it affects my mental state negatively.

As for teaching that puritans believed so and so or saying religions believe in creation- that isn't what people who want to "teach creation" generally mean. When people say that and what the national/world debate is about on that matter is whether creation should be taught as an alternative next to evolution and then let the kids "decide" which is right and wrong as if the two ideas are on equal standing (which I think you agree are not).

The one point that I didn't understand of yours though was that you said you accept evolution, yet you suggested that humans did not evolve from lower forms?

tecoyah · Dec 9, 2012

David said:
Well this thread got off topic. How did 'teaching about religion' turn into 'evolution vs. creation'? This reminds me of philosophical debates being about Hitler vs. Stalin 9 pages later.

Yes..it is always interesting to watch the fluid nature of debate, where one thought expressed becomes a new tangent of discussion. But, to point out where this particular tangent began:

David

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah

Religion, in this context is already included in school...as it is a part of world history. I understood the thread to be discussing something long the lines of a religious studies class.

As in....first period Math
second period civics
third period religious studies

I would consider this a waste of time and resources.

Only because you have a distasteful disdain for religion. Sunday School type crap should be avoided (in a public school setting at lest) but religion itself is a major if not fundamental reality of Human existence. You're in the same camp as the anti-intellectual idiots who don't want to teach history or evolution in school.

Do you think religion should be taught at schools?

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