Illegal to fail students if they believe in certain myths as opposed to facts?

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

myp said:
As Mark Twain said, "education is the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty."

Huh, seems you are the cocky know it all. You shouldn't post quotes that cut against you.

My position all along is that I don't know, I never claimed to know. You seem to insist that you do.

myp said:
. Or, don't believe me. I could care less.

them why have you posted for 19 pages? I don't believe a word you say, you have no credibility.

I have already provided a general summary of the evidence out there- go look at the first few pages of this thread. I have also given you sources to go look at further studies. You merely chose to brush all that aside. At this point I am not going to hold your hand and show you anything more- I have done my part. If you want to live with your head stuck in the soil, so be it, just don't expect me to sit back and let people like you try to change our schools for the worse.[/QUOTE]
You have done nothing. Tecoyah put you to shame completely in one post with little thought.

David · Apr 11, 2013

For the love of my sanity, learn to multi-quote, people!

Polydectes said:
So it isn't your concern if just the average Joe believes in creation but it is if the average child does? What harm does it bring to society?

The crazy Jew/Christian/Muslim is a lost cause and is liable to try and kill you if you try.

An open minded student however still has a chance at having an education that won't leave them looking like a medieval illiterate. Multiply that by every student in America and which way the country goes is suddenly in the balance.

Polydectes said:
Huh, seems you are the cocky know it all. You shouldn't post quotes that cut against you.

My position all along is that I don't know, I never claimed to know. You seem to insist that you do.

them why have you posted for 19 pages? I don't believe a word you say, you have no credibility.

I have already provided a general summary of the evidence out there- go look at the first few pages of this thread. I have also given you sources to go look at further studies. You merely chose to brush all that aside. At this point I am not going to hold your hand and show you anything more- I have done my part. If you want to live with your head stuck in the soil, so be it, just don't expect me to sit back and let people like you try to change our schools for the worse.

You have done nothing. Tecoyah put you to shame completely in one post with little thought.[/QUOTE]

Either you're a really bad troll or you are taking myp's analogies too literally. What's more commonly known as missing the forest for the trees.

myp · Apr 11, 2013

Polydectes said:
Huh, seems you are the cocky know it all. You shouldn't post quotes that cut against you.

My position all along is that I don't know, I never claimed to know. You seem to insist that you do.

Actually, I don't. You just like to think I do just like you think I am anti-religion. Go read my posts too- we have that one thing in common that we question things. What is different is that you aren't willing to produce a methodology of how you differentiate fact from fiction- yet you still do it as witnessed by your stern stance that 1+1 does in fact equal 2 (Descartes would question that and if you are really questioning everything absolutely, then why not that?) And my quotation was in response to your comment that we do have conclusive evidence to many things- by your evolution-rejecting standards, that is certainly not true (it isn't even true as per the scientific method for a lot of things in medicine, etc.).

Polydectes said:
you have no credibility.

Says the guy who rejects evolution as fact

Polydectes said:
You have done nothing. Tecoyah put you to shame completely in one post with little thought.

The difference between you and people such as myself and Tecoyah is that we aren't out to put eachother to shame. We are here to discuss these matters as objectively as possible. I already posted most of the evidence that he posted earlier in the thread- multiple times- not my fault that you didn't read it.

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

David said:
The crazy Jew/Christian/Muslim is a lost cause and is liable to try and kill you if you try. An open minded student however still has a chance at having an education that won't leave them looking like a medieval illiterate. Multiply that by every student in America and which way the country goes is suddenly in the balance.

Not accepting evolution is not the only thing in academia.frankly its such a tiny part of paleontology. I know many people very successful in their fields that don't accept evolution. I think it its terrible that you wish to write them off over something so incredibly trivial as what they think happened prior to history.

Why do you automatically through people into medieval illiteracy for not accepting evolution? That sounds like a prejudice to me.

David said:
Either you're a really bad troll or you are taking myp's analogies too literally. What's more commonly known as missing the forest for the trees.

The only troll here is myp. He never proved anything, he never provided anything, nothing at all and he rants and raves about facts. If I had stated there were facts to support my conclusion that would have been the first thing I posted. That is how you maintain credibility. Frankly I find him to be cocky.

I think you are the one missing the forest for the trees. I don't write off everyone that believes in this or that.

myp · Apr 11, 2013

Evolution is not a part of paleontology, lol.

Do you think biology should be taught in schools? If so, evolution is a HUGE part of that. DNA and RNA is the center component of all life on Earth- evolution is their change over the long run in a macro-scale.

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

myp said:
Actually, I don't. You just like to think I do just like you think I am anti-religion.

Now you are going too tell me what I think, funny you got upset when I did that to you. Nice that the pot calls the kettle black.

myp said:
Go read my posts too- we have that one thing in common that we question things. What is different is that you aren't willing to produce a methodology of how you differentiate fact from fiction- yet you still do it as witnessed by your stern stance that 1+1 does in fact equal 2 (Descartes would question that and if you are really questioning everything.

I explains it several times. Methodology for proving 1+1=2, counting. You just said you use science to deduce what you accept when you don't, science tells us we don't have am answer which has been my position all along. You are trying to Force it into your beliefs

myp said:
and my quotation was in response to your comment that we do have conclusive evidence to many things- by your evolution-rejecting standards, that is certainly not true (it isn't even true as per the scientific method for a lot of things in medicine, etc.).

you abuse that term science, likely because you don't really understand science. We have evidence, to me it isn't conclusive, I don't need it to be my religion isn't hanging in the balance. Yours is.

myp said:
Says the guy who rejects evolution as fact

More less and slander.

I never rejected evolution, just your religious belief that it is fact.

myp said:
The difference between you and people such as myself and Tecoyah is that we aren't out to put eachother to shame. We are here to discuss these matters as objectively as possible. I already posted most of the evidence that he posted earlier in the thread- multiple times- not my fault that you didn't read it.

Tecoyah at least posted something close to proof. Even if you don't do out to put each other to shame, he still did.

You don't discuss anything objectively, lies are why you have no credibility.

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

myp said:
Evolution is not a part of paleontology, lol.

Do you think biology should be taught in schools? If so, evolution is a HUGE part of that. DNA and RNA is the center component of all life on Earth- evolution is their change over the long run in a macro-scale.

It isn't really. Biology exists. Evolution is only visible through paleontology.

tecoyah · Apr 11, 2013

Polydectes said:
So it isn't your concern if just the average Joe believes in creation but it is if the average child does? What harm does it bring to society?

As I very clearly stated...belief does not, refusal of accepted fact does.

On another note.....

You guys need to drop it down a notch......Calling each other names will make me need to get active.

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

tecoyah said:
As I very clearly stated...belief does not, refusal of accepted fact does.

On another note.....

You guys need to drop it down a notch......Calling each other names will make me need to get active.

Sorry if I did call someone a name.

evolution probably occurs, in fact it likely occurs. But possibly and likely aren't definitely. And without definitely it can't be fact. Because fact is definite.

So what are we supposed to do, tell a kid they have to believe in evolution and that their religion doesn't matter?

tecoyah · Apr 11, 2013

Polydectes said:
Sorry if I did call someone a name.

evolution probably occurs, in fact it likely occurs. But possibly and likely aren't definitely. And without definitely it can't be fact. Because fact is definite.

So what are we supposed to do, tell a kid they have to believe in evolution and that their religion doesn't matter?

As I indicated, the science behind evolution theory can indeed be (and is) considered fact...to the point is has become part of the curriculum in education. the Creation hypothesis has failed to become an accepted theory, let alone fact.
No one is telling anyone they cannot "Believe" whatever they wish, but if they do not also accept what is considered reality....they fill be failed in education.
Religion certainly matters, it is very important to millions...this does not make the facts go away.

Another way to put it:

Should our schools stop teaching our kids what they will need to be productive and competent adults, in an attempt to make certain people feel better?

myp · Apr 11, 2013

Polydectes said:
Now you are going too tell me what I think, funny you got upset when I did that to you. Nice that the pot calls the kettle black.

I am not telling you what you think because you literally SAID it. I never said anything about being anti-religion or not questioning.

Polydectes said:
I explains it several times. Methodology for proving 1+1=2, counting. You just said you use science to deduce what you accept when you don't, science tells us we don't have am answer which has been my position all along. You are trying to Force it into your beliefs
you abuse that term science, likely because you don't really understand science. We have evidence, to me it isn't conclusive, I don't need it to be my religion isn't hanging in the balance. Yours is.

So now you are trying to change what science means too? Go look at any survey of scientists and you'll see a near-100% acceptance of evolution as FACT. And they accept it as fact because they are applying the scientific method and the evidence is overwhelming. Probably the most famous biologist alive today talks about this regularly while bashing creationism in talks, writings, and even his twitter account: https://twitter.com/RichardDawkins
So don't pretend I am being unscientific when I say evolution is fact and creationism is garbage- it is quite apparent and everyone who matters in science and understands real science seems to agree.

Polydectes said:
I never rejected evolution, just your religious belief that it is fact.

I know. That is why I posted "Says the guy who rejects evolution as fact "

Polydectes said:
Tecoyah at least posted something close to proof. Even if you don't do out to put each other to shame, he still did.

Just because you don't understand something does not mean I didn't post anything. You don't understand my analogies- that is your problem. Clearly other people do (David just said it too). You also seem to not understand the complexity of this issue and how it goes beyond just accepting or rejecting evolution.

And now to post the proof that I have already posted in this thread but as per what is usual with you, you seem to have ignored: On Page 2 of this thread:
http://politicalfray.com/current-ev...-certain-myths-opposed-facts-2.html#post41526

Page 4: http://politicalfray.com/current-ev...-certain-myths-opposed-facts-4.html#post41588

Page 10: http://politicalfray.com/current-ev...certain-myths-opposed-facts-10.html#post41851

http://politicalfray.com/current-ev...certain-myths-opposed-facts-10.html#post41890

And there are more I don't feel like finding right now. I also told you to go check out PubMed for more detailed studies on any specific questions you might have.

Polydectes said:
lies are why you have no credibility.

What is the point of repeating this ad nauseum? Most sane people can decide for themselves who is the one without credibility of us two

Polydectes said:
It isn't really. Biology exists. Evolution is only visible through paleontology.

There are so many things wrong with this statement, that I am not sure where to begin.

For one, evolution is a part of biology- a fundamental part- open up any bio 101 book and you'll see it. Ask any biologist, and they'll tell you. The vast majority of all people group evolution under biology- for one, this whole issue is about k12 schools teaching evolution- what k12 schools do you know that teach much paleontology?

That aside, you again show that you completely ignore all the proof of evolution including things like what tecoyah posted. To suggest it is only seen through the study of ancient life is ABSURD. For one, you can grab a petri dish, put your fingerprint on it and watch evolution before your eyes over a few days. And that is only the tip of the iceberg of what encompasses evolution that you have forgotten in this little "paleontology" statement.

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

tecoyah said:
As I indicated, the science behind evolution theory can indeed be (and is) considered fact...to the point is has become part of the curriculum in education. the Creation hypothesis has failed to become an accepted theory, let alone fact.
No one is telling anyone they cannot "Believe" whatever they wish, but if they do not also accept what is considered reality....they fill be failed in education.
Religion certainly matters, it is very important to millions...this does not make the facts go away.

Another way to put it:

Should our schools stop teaching our kids what they will need to be productive and competent adults, in an attempt to make certain people feel better?

I understand what you are saying, but why does a kid fail for not accepting evolution? That shouldn't be enough to fail a kid. It seems punitive to me.

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

myp said:
That aside, you again show that you completely ignore all the proof of evolution including things like what tecoyah posted. To suggest it is only seen through the study of ancient life is ABSURD. For one, you can grab a petri dish, put your fingerprint on it and watch evolution before your eyes over a few days. And that is only the tip of the iceberg of what encompasses evolution that you have forgotten in this little "paleontology" statement.

Bacteria multiplying isn't evolution. Is that the straw man you were touting as "germ theory":giggle:

myp · Apr 11, 2013

Polydectes said:
I understand what you are saying, but why does a kid fail for not accepting evolution? That shouldn't be enough to fail a kid. It seems punitive to me.

Why are you taking the title so literally? It is basically saying that creationism is not an excuse for getting stuff about evolution wrong in class and that if it is worth points, they won't get points for the creationist alternative. If those points add up to so much that they fail the class, then so be it. And before you go on about how evolution should not play that big a role in a class- well if it is a bio class it probably should and often does. We've been over this in this thread though.

tecoyah · Apr 11, 2013

Polydectes said:
I understand what you are saying, but why does a kid fail for not accepting evolution? That shouldn't be enough to fail a kid. It seems punitive to me.

*Analogy*

Your boss tells you to take the #3 widget and use it on the left handed gizmo.
You don't think the #3 widget will fit, so you use #2
The Gizmo goes unrepaired because you did not believe he knew what he was talking about.
Your boss no longer trusts you to do the Job, and you lose hours
You follow his directions next time, and get your hours back....the kids get food, and you keep the house.

But, you still think the #2 would work.

You are not forced to change what you think....but you changed what you do to survive.

myp · Apr 11, 2013

Polydectes said:
Bacteria multiplying isn't evolution. Is that the straw man you were touting as "germ theory":giggle:

Actually, it is. And no germ theory has nothing to do with that. I am starting to think the problem here is you don't understand half the things I am talking about and instead of looking them up, you just ignore them and hit respond. Anyway, to give you a quick lesson, bacteria have very short lifespans- with some bacteria we will go through several generations with days. This means that if we are to observe them and specifically look at their genomes through those generations, they will be changing- that is evolution and you can see it. There are so many uses of this obvious evolution in front of our eyes- we often use special petri dishes to select for bacteria within the dish that have evolved with certain mutations- this is a very useful trick in a number of applications from research applications to industry (even things like food production and healthcare).

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

myp said:
Actually, it is. And no germ theory has nothing to do with that. I am starting to think the problem here is you don't understand half the things I am talking about and instead of looking them up, you just ignore them and hit respond. Anyway, to give you a quick lesson, bacteria have very short lifespans- with some bacteria we will go through several generations with days. This means that if we are to observe them and specifically look at their genomes through those generations, they will be changing- that is evolution and you can see it. There are so many uses of this obvious evolution in front of our eyes- we often use special petri dishes to select for bacteria within the dish that have evolved with certain mutations- this is a very useful trick in a number of applications from research applications to industry (even things like food production and healthcare).

So what you are telling me is that the offspring being different from their parent is evolution? Why on earth dose that even slightly conflict with creation?

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

tecoyah said:
*Analogy*

Your boss tells you to take the #3 widget and use it on the left handed gizmo.
You don't think the #3 widget will fit, so you use #2
The Gizmo goes unrepaired because you did not believe he knew what he was talking about.
Your boss no longer trusts you to do the Job, and you lose hours
You follow his directions next time, and get your hours back....the kids get food, and you keep the house.

But, you still think the #2 would work.

You are not forced to change what you think....but you changed what you do to survive.

A work environment is to do what you are told. A school environment is to be equipped with knowledge to understand things.

myp · Apr 11, 2013

Polydectes said:
So what you are telling me is that the offspring being different from their parent is evolution? Why on earth dose that even slightly conflict with creation?

Oh brother. So you haven't known what evolution was this whole time? And of course it conflicts with creation considering that creation doesn't accept our evolution from other species or a universal common ancestor, and on and on. Of course the conflicts vary depending on what form of creationism is being compared too- young earth, old earth, and whatever other crazy fairy tales they might have.

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

myp said:
Oh brother. So you haven't known what evolution was this whole time? And of course it conflicts with creation considering that creation doesn't accept our evolution from other species or a universal common ancestor, and on and on. Of course the conflicts vary depending on what form of creationism is being compared too- young earth, old earth, and whatever other crazy fairy tales they might have.

Creation had to do with what occurED before the evolutionary process even started. Evolution is currently occurring so they don't have anything to do with each other.

I want arguing about how offspring was genetically different from its parent. But the Norton that magic soup just decides to become life one day. the only flaw with evolution is the beginning. How many experiments have been successful in this primordial soup hypothesis? Surly science has attempted to replicate such an occurrence, wait, saw something on science channel, they have tried and failed to produce like out of fluids.

The primordial soup isn't a theory, it is a hypothesis. Or mythology. So without a foundation how do you build on this theory?

Illegal to fail students if they believe in certain myths as opposed to facts?

Similar threads