Trayvon Martin

tecoyah · Nov 15, 2012

As far as I know...neither person in this case was Caucasian. It is however quite telling, that in a case as complex as this one, when given a choice to comment on the many worthy components, and contribute to the thread.........you would choose to focus on racism.

I have a recommendation for you.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/

Hammer · Nov 15, 2012

tecoyah said:
As far as I know...neither person in this case was Caucasian. It is however quite telling, that in a case as complex as this one, when given a choice to comment on the many worthy components, and contribute to the thread.........you would choose to focus on racism.

Racism is the only reason this case made the national news. Racism is the only reason Zimmerman was charged. Racism is Zimmerman's alleged motive. So, why do you think racism is such an unworthy to aspect of this case to address?

..............Why do you choose to be an @sshole?

tecoyah · Nov 15, 2012

Hammer said:
Racism is the only reason this case made the national news. Racism is the only reason Zimmerman was charged. Racism is Zimmerman's alleged motive. So, why do you think racism is such an unworthy to aspect of this case to address?

..............Why do you choose to be an @sshole?

Please, do not resort to childish name calling...it is unattractive and unproductive.

I actually felt this was controversial due to the "Stand Your Ground" law being the explanation for a teenager being shot and killed in a relatively well to do residential area. Granted, there was a push by the media to focus on the Race of the dead kid, but most people have not made that the focus....certainly not reverse racism.

My comment simply pointed out the obvious direction you wish the discussion to go, and provided you with a link to a forum where it might be appreciated.

Hammer · Nov 15, 2012

tecoyah said:
Please, do not resort to childish name calling...it is unattractive and unproductive.

....Says the guy whose previous post was purely childish and unproductive.

I actually felt this was controversial due to the "Stand Your Ground" law being the explanation for a teenager being shot and killed in a relatively well to do residential area. Granted, there was a push by the media to focus on the Race of the dead kid, but most people have not made that the focus....certainly not reverse racism.

Granted, the media's focus is race? SYG is a relatively minor aspect to the race issue.

Hammer · Nov 15, 2012

myp said:
The Trayvon Martin story has gone viral with many grassroots campaigns to try to get officials to prosecute George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer who shot and killed the unarmed teenager after an altercation.

Not after, during an altercation.

what happened certainly seems over the top on Zimmerman's part. And it is truly tragic for Trayvon's family and really everyone.

Shooting someone who jumps you, knocks you to the ground, and savagely beats you is over the top? Should Zimmerman had waited until he was killed or knocked unconscious to shoot in self-defense?

tecoyah · Nov 15, 2012

Hammer said:
....snip....

Granted, the media's focus is race? SYG is a relatively minor aspect to the race issue.

The courts, and Zimmermans legal team do not seem to agree with you.

"
(CBS/AP) SANFORD, Fla. - Attorneys for George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch volunteer charged with murder in the fatal February shooting of Trayvon Martin, say they'll seek a "stand your ground" hearing that could lead to criminal charges being dismissed.
Pictures: Trayvon Martin shooting
A statement posted Thursday on the website for Zimmerman's legal team says evidence released by prosecutors shows "clear support for a strong claim of self-defense."
Zimmerman says he shot 17-year-old Martin in self-defense under Florida's so-called "stand your ground" law, which allows someone to use deadly force, instead of retreating, if they believe their life is in danger.
Under the law, Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester can dismiss the charges if Zimmerman conclusively shows he fatally shot Martin because he "reasonably believed" he might be killed or suffer "great bodily harm" at the hands of the unarmed teenager.
Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder. If the judge rules the evidence fits the conditions of "stand your ground," Zimmerman would also be immune from civil action in the Feb. 26 shooting in Sanford, Fla.
Zimmerman is now free on $1 million bond."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...seek-stand-your-ground-hearing-attorneys-say/

Hammer · Nov 15, 2012

MPR said:
This situation could get really ugly.

First, the media is weaving the story of racism portraying Trayvon Martin as a helpless teenager and George Zimmerman as a fanatic and racist. All the pictures of Martin are young looking and smiling. All the pictures of Zimmerman look like mug shots. The media typically uses Trayvon’s first name in a familiar fashion, whereas they use the colder, more detached Zimmerman in reference to George Zimmerman.

Second, the media glosses over the altercation between the two and typically references a statement by Martin’s girlfriend to give account of what happened. The girlfriend, who wasn’t there to observe the altercation, assumes Martin was knocked down, whereas an eyewitness account describes Zimmerman as being knocked down. The media also quotes Martin’s mother as saying that it was Martin who was knocked down.

Third, the media never mentions that Martin had any injuries besides the gunshot wound. However, it is mentioned that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose. This information would seem to indicate that Martin was not the one knocked down…however, this is never mentioned by the media.

Fourth, the media continually lists the height and weight of both men, with an emphasis on the weight. They do this in a way that makes it sound like someone 150 lbs couldn’t knock down someone over 200 lbs. Well, in reality, an out-of-shape 200+ lbs man would probably be quite easy for a taller 150 lbs teenager to knock down.

Fifth, the media continually mentions that Zimmerman was following Martin, and that the police dispatch said he didn’t need to do that. However, they do not always mention that Martin then approached Zimmerman when Zimmerman went to his car.

I have no idea what really happened in this situation, and it definitely seems that Zimmerman was way out of line. However, the media may be making more out of this than it really is. It is a tragedy, no doubt, but until the real facts come out and due process runs its course, the media shouldn’t be trying to swing public opinion one way or the other. By doing so they are taking a bad situation and making it potentially dangerous.

Wow, a good post. Let me finish for you. Martin decides to punish the guy following him, so instead of leaving the area, Martin doubles back, after Zimmerman stopped following him (see the timeline). Martin then jumps Zimmerman.

There's no reason to expect any evidence supporting this from the girlfriend on the phone, because of her bias and failure to give her account in a timely manner.

=Zoomer= · Nov 15, 2012

Hammer said:
Not after, during an altercation.

Shooting someone who jumps you, knocks you to the ground, and savagely beats you is over the top? Should Zimmerman had waited until he was killed or knocked unconscious to shoot in self-defense?

No, he shouldn't have been following Treyvon in the first place. And he was explicitly told not to by law enforcement before his disobeyed and followed anyway.

You can't be "self-defending" when you're the pursuer.

Hammer · Nov 15, 2012

tecoyah said:
The courts, and Zimmermans legal team do not seem to agree with you.

In your previous post, you were focusing on "most people", no you're talking about the Defense. No sh!t, for the Defense race isn't the issue, but for most people (on Trayvon's side, which includes the general media) and the Prosecution, it is.

No sh!t, Tecoyah, for the Defense, this is a self-defense case, and nothing else. After the SYG hearing, if they lose that, SYG will become a complete non-issue in the case.

Hammer · Nov 15, 2012

=Zoomer= said:
No, he shouldn't have been following Treyvon in the first place. And he was explicitly told not to by law enforcement before his disobeyed and followed anyway.

You can't be "self-defending" when you're the pursuer.

You get an F on the facts. Zimmerman never disobeyed any police instruction. And, Zimmerman wasn't following Martin at the time Zimmerman was attacked.

And, yes, you can argue self-defense if you're the pursuer. Following someone doesn't mean you're obligated to let that someone beat you to death. The pursuit actually helps Zimmerman's case, because it gives motive to Martin to attack Zimmerman.

The case comes down to who assaulted whom, and who was winning the fight. And, Zimmerman has the presumption of innocence unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And, there's just no reasonable doubt that Zimmerman acted in self-defense.

tecoyah · Nov 15, 2012

Very well...we can go back to your focus. Although race is certainly an issue here, it is not an important one...nor should it be. A large adult male shot a teenager after being told by authorities to back off. His claim was self defense, and under a law in place (which shall remain nameless), justification may be accepted.
As an adult male, in a position of authority as the neighborhood watch representative, one would assume he knew his place in this situation. He was told by police what that position was, and ignored it. This 250 lb man instead decided to approach the teenage boy. Something happened that prompted him to use deadly force, and kill the teenager.

Did the kid beat him to a pulp...obviously not, as some type of evidence would be obvious. It is also hard to imagine an untrained teenager overpowering a large adult male to the point that he must fear for his life.

Did the Adult confront the teenager...yes, he did as documented by police, and his own testimony.

If it is self defense....why do you feel the need to focus on race?

=Zoomer= · Nov 15, 2012

You get an F on the facts.

You are neither a teacher, or "in charge" of the facts. And before you bother replying, I'm no longer interested in your opinion. I have found it "wanting". I know that matters not to you, and you will reply anyway. Just know that I don't respect your points of view. Not because of what you believe, but because of the way those opinions have been formed.

Hammer · Nov 15, 2012

tecoyah said:
A large adult male shot a teenager after being told by authorities to back off.

Martin was several inches taller, at his ideal weight (22 BMI, coroner's report), and younger. Zimmerman was fat. And, consistent with Martin being the stronger man, Martin was on top of Zimmerman, pounding Zimmerman, as the preponderance of the evidence shows.

But, you bring up Zimmerman's size, implying that Zimmerman had the physical advantage, while ignoring Martin's size. Why do you lie? If you don't think you're lying, why are you lying to yourself, as well? Martin would have won a straight up fight against Zimmerman 9 times out of 10, and was winning the fight that night.

As an adult male, in a position of authority as the neighborhood watch representative, one would assume he knew his place in this situation. He was told by police what that position was, and ignored it.

You're lying again. Neighborhood watchmen have no authority. His position required no training (beyond reading a short manual, if even that). And, he was only told that the police "don't need" him following the suspect, at which time he stopped following the suspect.

Did the Adult confront the teenager...yes, he did as documented by police, and his own testimony.

You're still lying. There is no documentation from anyone that Zimmerman confronted Martin. Even the GF's 100% biased testimony doesn't claim that Zimmerman confronted Martin.

tecoyah · Nov 15, 2012

I do not enjoy being accused of lying...so have decided to avoid you going forward as a debate partner. I would request on a different level, that you treat our members with a bit more respect.

Hammer · Nov 15, 2012

tecoyah said:
I do not enjoy being accused of lying...so have decided to avoid you going forward as a debate partner. I would request on a different level, that you treat our members with a bit more respect.

I don't enjoy discussing issues with someone who thinks they can make up things as they go along. You make confident statements that are outright false or misleading about key details. One time might be a mistake, but when every point you make is colored, it's not a mistake. And, if it were an innocent mistake, you'd let it be known that you stand corrected: "I was wrong. There's no documentation that Zimmerman confronted Martin." Or, "I meant to say Zimmerman followed, not confronted, Martin." Instead, you beat your chest self-righteously and condemn me for questioning your integrity (a classic maneuver by dishonest men).

I'm thankful when people correct my errors.

Bill · Nov 24, 2012

This case has been disturbing, not just because someone died but also because of the way people outside of the case have acted. You've got some who immediately point to Trayvon's documented petty criminal activity as some sort of justification for his death and others, such as the President, donning hoodies knowing full well that they're taking a stand in a case they know nothing about other than what's been reported.

Zimmerman never should have gotten out of his car, period. He's not a cop. It's a shame he didn't just ask Trayvon what was up. "Hello, my name is George and I'm with the neighborhood watch. You seem to be lost or disoriented, can I help you? Do you need assistance?"

Even if Trayvon was up to no good just letting him know that he'd been noticed may have been enough to prevent the incident which followed.

clax · Nov 24, 2012

It seems disgusting to me all the people who want blood over it. It occurs hundreds of times a month, never does it make even the slightest ripple in the news media. I have personally investigated four deaths of black teens that were gunned down, not in a gray murky self defense mess but in a clear cut cold blooded murder. The first was a teen who had a checkered past, much like Martins, not that that takes the value of his life away, gives people the right to kill. The case was closed when the number one suspect was determined to be the boy's girlfriend's father. The murder was absurdly in cold blood determined after investigations that took fourteen months, we had the killer, he walked up to us, the weapon in his hand, he surrendered. But his defense was that the boy attacked him, there was evidence that suggested that there was a struggle between the two of them.

The only difference is the killer wasn't white. The moral to the Martin Zimmermann case is if you kill embody and you are white, you are guilty no trial no judge just mob rule and professional racists will call for blood. If you are black and kill a black person nobody cares. Sad state of affairs that is. But I guess the professional racists can't claim racism if the actor and victim are the same race. Just disgusting.

Hammer · Nov 24, 2012

Bill said:
Zimmerman never should have gotten out of his car, period. He's not a cop. It's a shame he didn't just ask Trayvon what was up. "Hello, my name is George and I'm with the neighborhood watch. You seem to be lost or disoriented, can I help you? Do you need assistance?"

Yeah, and if Travyon Martin's mother had him ripped apart in her womb and then thrown fetal Martin's corpse into the dumpster, this also wouldn't have happened.

Getting out of the car, or anything else Zimmerman did, does not justify Martain brutally assaulting Zimmerman. Why didn't you suggest that if Martin and hadn't assaulted Zimmerman, Martin would still be alive? Why is it only the white guy's responsibility to keep the peace, no matter what the black guy wants to do?

To answer your charges against Zimmerman, it sure is easy be an armchair quarterback, isn't it? Zimmerman got out of his car to answer the operator's question about which way Martin was running. And, Zimmerman didn't introduce himself as neighborhood watch because he was too scared to start a rational conversation, not that it would have made a difference except in the naive reasoning of some armchair quarterbacks.

Bill · Nov 25, 2012

Hammer said:
Yeah, and if Travyon Martin's mother had him ripped apart in her womb and then thrown fetal Martin's corpse into the dumpster, this also wouldn't have happened.

You're seriously going to compare an abortion 17 years in the past to the actions of a man directly involved in this incident? Go right ahead, it's not my name on that impressive bit of reasoning.

Hammer said:
Getting out of the car, or anything else Zimmerman did, does not justify Martain brutally assaulting Zimmerman.

I never said it did.

Hammer said:
Why didn't you suggest that if Martin and hadn't assaulted Zimmerman, Martin would still be alive?

The only reason those two came into direct contact was because Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to follow Martin.

Hammer said:
Why is it only the white guy's responsibility to keep the peace, no matter what the black guy wants to do?

I never said it was. I suggested that the "adult" in this incident could have acted in a less confrontational way and maybe the violence could have been avoided. By the way, you keep saying "white". Which one of them was the white guy, the black or the hispanic?

Hammer said:
To answer your charges against Zimmerman, it sure is easy be an armchair quarterback, isn't it?

This in no way answered any charges. I only made one charge and that was that Zimmerman shouldn't have gotten out of his car and no one should need hindsight to realize that. As for your QB reference, I suppose it's as easy for me as it is for you.

Hammer said:
Zimmerman got out of his car to answer the operator's question about which way Martin was running.

That's not what happened, you have apparently forgotten that the tape of that call has been released to the public. Zimmerman was not asked to follow, he could just as easily reported the last known location and waited for the police. If you wish to try to make it sound as if Zimmerman was following the directions of the Emergency Services operator then fine but at that point you really should stop accusing others of not knowing the facts.

Hammer said:
And, Zimmerman didn't introduce himself as neighborhood watch because he was too scared to start a rational conversation, not that it would have made a difference except in the naive reasoning of some armchair quarterbacks.

He was too scared to start a conversation? He wasn't too scared to call the police. He wasn't too scared to follow the kid. He wasn't too scared to show him his gun. Nice try, not buying it though. And you think I'm naive? LOL.

=Zoomer= · Nov 25, 2012

Bill said:
This case has been disturbing, not just because someone died but also because of the way people outside of the case have acted. You've got some who immediately point to Trayvon's documented petty criminal activity as some sort of justification for his death and others, such as the President, donning hoodies knowing full well that they're taking a stand in a case they know nothing about other than what's been reported.

Zimmerman never should have gotten out of his car, period. He's not a cop. It's a shame he didn't just ask Trayvon what was up. "Hello, my name is George and I'm with the neighborhood watch. You seem to be lost or disoriented, can I help you? Do you need assistance?"

Even if Trayvon was up to no good just letting him know that he'd been noticed may have been enough to prevent the incident which followed.

Well said Bill....+1

Trayvon Martin

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