Worst presidents of all time

Mar 2009
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deanhills - There is something wrong with the quote system, or the way you ediited it, or something, because the quote attributed to me is what myp wrote, not what I wrote.

What amazes me about all of you Obama bashers is that we had an absolute idiot as president of the US for eight years, and that doesn't seem to bother you much. The other thing that amazes me is that we have had tax cuts for years, and look what happened. We deregulated, and look what happened. Yet still, your recipe for everything is lower taxes and less regulation. You sound like the global warming deniers. "Let's not any facts get in the way" of ideology.


Bush is gone. Obama asked for it and he got. Time to move on. Dumb is out and "naive" is in.:(

By the way, Bush was hammered by the left from day one up until today. Obama was elected because of "Bush hatred" not because he had so many accomplishments. And so far he is less than even I expected.
 
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Mar 2009
422
4
Florida, USA
About Bush, who is actually already four months history,?

No, January 20 until April 22 is not four months, it is three.

I think there were quite strong protests against him, but since he is no longer the President, someone else has to be responsible, and I believe that is Obama. He sort of got the job after lots of campaigning.

Are you saying that if you run for office on a platform that says the previous guy got it wrong, that you then become guilty of that guy's mistakes if you win?


And for any person who likes free markets, as well as prefers as little as possible Government, Obama is the ant-thesis of that as he is obviously going for socialism.

Well if socialism means that the 'richest country in the world' doesn't have people suffering and dying because they can't afford medical care, then I'm all for it. A lot of things got labeled as bad just because the Soviets did them during the cold war. My parents thought that women shouldn't be allowed to be doctors because half the doctors in the Soviet Union were women so it must be a terrible thing. I hate to think we are still applying that kind of logic, and long after the Soviets have fallen apart.

For example he signed a Presidential order for all the prisoners of GITMO to be released, and I have not seen much along the lines of trials being held right now. Have you?

I don't believe he signed an order for them to be released. He signed an order to close the prison at Gitmo. I don't know if they still use it as a Navy base or not, or whether the whole facility will be shut down.

Anyway, they are negotiating with the home countries of the prisoners, I believe. I just read an article that Yemen is planning on holding trials for all of their citizens that were incarcerated there. They've just had some Al Quaeda bombings and are more than a bit angry at the moment.

Unfortuantely, the fact that we tortured them doesn't make them either innocent or guilty.
 
Jan 2009
639
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GITMO only had about 40 real prisoners anyway. Most them are being moved to military prisons in the US to await their tribunal or serve a sentence for war crimes/terrorism.

I think there were 23 people or so who were truly released (and even then I think it was just because we couldn't charge them with anything concrete). The rest of the inmates were freed individuals who couldn't go home. Bush was actually quite kind and refused to send back a number of Chinese Muslims home, because they were just going to be executed in China. The same went for a number of people. He just closed the facility and demanded that the EU stay true to their offer and take the prisoners (a number of them reneged but I believe Switzerland and Portugal said they'd take them all).
 
Mar 2009
2,188
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No, January 20 until April 22 is not four months, it is three.
OK. I stand corrected. Three months plus a few days.

Are you saying that if you run for office on a platform that says the previous guy got it wrong, that you then become guilty of that guy's mistakes if you win?
You are deliberately misinterpreting my comment - following my above statement I was saying that this is now Obama's baby. He made an undertaking and has to follow this through with action. If there is a delay in hearings, then he has to answer for it.

Well if socialism means that the 'richest country in the world' doesn't have people suffering and dying because they can't afford medical care, then I'm all for it.
I am almost certain that if the US should go for socialism that there will be more people dying as a result of "cheap" medical care available to all. There will be huge line-ups in hospitals, cancer victims delayed operations. Think it would be interesting to do research on the number of Canadians electing for medical care in the United States for that very reason.

Anyway, they are negotiating with the home countries of the prisoners, I believe. I just read an article that Yemen is planning on holding trials for all of their citizens that were incarcerated there. They've just had some Al Quaeda bombings and are more than a bit angry at the moment.
I would not compare Western statements with those of Yemen. It is one of the extremist Islamic Governments, completely autocratic. You don't want to end up in a prison over there.
 
Mar 2009
422
4
Florida, USA
You are deliberately misinterpreting my comment - following my above statement I was saying that this is now Obama's baby. He made an undertaking and has to follow this through with action. If there is a delay in hearings, then he has to answer for it.

Maybe it is a semantics thing. I'm not saying it isn't his problem to solve, but that you can't blame him for the problem existing in the first place, which is what you seem to be doing.

I am almost certain that if the US should go for socialism that there will be more people dying as a result of "cheap" medical care available to all. There will be huge line-ups in hospitals, cancer victims delayed operations. Think it would be interesting to do research on the number of Canadians electing for medical care in the United States for that very reason.

I suppose that is why the US ranks so terribly high in life expectancy, 50th in the world. See the CIA rankings. We used to be 45th, but we've slipped. Please note that all those countries with the dreaded socialized medicine outrank the US. Our infant mortality rate ranks us at 180 (reverse order, since low rates are good) while Singapore has the lowest and is ranked at 225. That puts us at the 45th best. And again, its those places with comprehensive health coverage that outrank us.

There are no facts that indicate socialized medicine results in overall worse health care, if you assume the goal is to have an overall healthy population. If the goal is to make sure that those with money get the best while the rest do without, then totally private care makes sense.

I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks it is OK for a hospital to stabilize an unisured person who has had a heart attack and then send that person home, even though a bypass needed, because they aren't insured and aren't rick. And that is what happens. And that the reason usually given is that people might have to wait longer for non-emergency care is even worse.

I would not compare Western statements with those of Yemen. It is one of the extremist Islamic Governments, completely autocratic. You don't want to end up in a prison over there.

What statements from Yemen? I was referring to the fact, again recently reported in the paper, that the negotiations for returning Yemeni nationals are holding up the whole Guantanamo closing process because the US is not convinced the government of Yemen is equipped to or willing to handle them properly. The statements from Yemen are that they are ready to take them. And the US is doing exactly what you said, not believing them. And that is slowing down the process. So are you complaining that the government agrees with you?
 
Mar 2009
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Maybe it is a semantics thing. I'm not saying it isn't his problem to solve, but that you can't blame him for the problem existing in the first place, which is what you seem to be doing.
I'm not in the blame game. Obama is the Chief in Charge of the US. Bush is no longer around. Nothing personal. It is what it is. Obama now has to deal with the criticism, it sort of comes with the territory, sins of the fathers and all that. Politics is a dirty business.

I suppose that is why the US ranks so terribly high in life expectancy, 50th in the world. See the CIA rankings. We used to be 45th, but we've slipped. Please note that all those countries with the dreaded socialized medicine outrank the US. Our infant mortality rate ranks us at 180 (reverse order, since low rates are good) while Singapore has the lowest and is ranked at 225. That puts us at the 45th best. And again, its those places with comprehensive health coverage that outrank us.
Perhaps one has to look at other factors when one makes comparisons. Could be that Singapore's average population is much younger than that in the US. Since the US's average age must be getting older, there would be more people dying. Just one of the factors to look at. I don't pay much attention to statistics, as generally I think they are never really completely accurate. I would rather live in the US anyday than in Singapore.

I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks it is OK for a hospital to stabilize an unisured person who has had a heart attack and then send that person home, even though a bypass needed, because they aren't insured and aren't rick. And that is what happens. And that the reason usually given is that people might have to wait longer for non-emergency care is even worse.
That is bad. But then who should be paying? The American taxpayers?


What statements from Yemen? I was referring to the fact, again recently reported in the paper, that the negotiations for returning Yemeni nationals are holding up the whole Guantanamo closing process because the US is not convinced the government of Yemen is equipped to or willing to handle them properly. The statements from Yemen are that they are ready to take them. And the US is doing exactly what you said, not believing them. And that is slowing down the process. So are you complaining that the government agrees with you?
The newspaper report about the Yemenis holding up the whole Gitmo closing process is not correct. There is a deadline of end of May for all files to be scrutinized before anybody will be released. There are also many others that the US cannot find homes for, including a Group of Chinese who cannot be returned to China and that other countries like Australia cannot accept.
 
Mar 2009
159
2
North Carolina
I'm sorry, but I think it's to soon in the minds of Americans to look back objectively and view the more recent presidents. That's why I excluded Obama, Bush, and Clinton. I'm going to let history judge them first because I make any rash conclusions about them. Plus with Obama, he's barely in office, so you can't be the worst president yet. Let him finish a term. And we just got OUT of Bush so emotions are too high to make a rational judgement there. Clinton has been some time, but I'd still like to wait a bit more, just because a longer wait means more information about the guy comes out and you discover things you didn't know about his administration.
 
Mar 2009
422
4
Florida, USA
Perhaps one has to look at other factors when one makes comparisons. Could be that Singapore's average population is much younger than that in the US. Since the US's average age must be getting older, there would be more people dying. Just one of the factors to look at. I don't pay much attention to statistics, as generally I think they are never really completely accurate. I would rather live in the US anyday than in Singapore.

Have you ever been to Singapore? Do you know anything about it? I've spent over six months there. If anything, their population is older than that of the US. It's sort of a natural result of living longer. The population is becoming younger, but that's because for the last few years they have been bringing in a lot of immigrants.

They are better in these statistics because absolutely everybody gets good medical care.

And what about the other countries that are so far ahead of the US?

Perhaps you would rather live in the US because you have insurance or sufficient funds to cover medical insurance. I am unisurable because of a chronic health condition. If I have a heart attack, that's it. It's over.

That is bad. But then who should be paying? The American taxpayers?

Yes. Exactly. Just like we pay to educate children that aren't our own. I chose not have children, but I still paid property taxes.

The newspaper report about the Yemenis holding up the whole Gitmo closing process is not correct. There is a deadline of end of May for all files to be scrutinized before anybody will be released. There are also many others that the US cannot find homes for, including a Group of Chinese who cannot be returned to China and that other countries like Australia cannot accept.

So I'm correct, and whoever said Obama wasn't keeping his promises and was a failure was wrong in two ways. First, Obama never said he would free the prisoners, just that he would shut down Guantanamo. And second, that the delay is his fault.
 
Mar 2009
2,188
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Have you ever been to Singapore? Do you know anything about it? I've spent over six months there. If anything, their population is older than that of the US. It's sort of a natural result of living longer. The population is becoming younger, but that's because for the last few years they have been bringing in a lot of immigrants.

They are better in these statistics because absolutely everybody gets good medical care.

And what about the other countries that are so far ahead of the US?

Perhaps you would rather live in the US because you have insurance or sufficient funds to cover medical insurance. I am unisurable because of a chronic health condition. If I have a heart attack, that's it. It's over.
No, I have not been to Singapore, but where I am there is quite a big link with Singapore. One thing I found is that people find it very difficult to get jobs in Singapore and the cost of living is of the highest in the world. Hence why they are always looking for opportunities outside their country, and in a very aggressive competitive way.

So I'm correct, and whoever said Obama wasn't keeping his promises and was a failure was wrong in two ways. First, Obama never said he would free the prisoners, just that he would shut down Guantanamo. And second, that the delay is his fault.
I thought they were detainees, and not prisoners. There is quite a difference between detainees and prisoners. It is Obama who created expectations of a quick processing, isn't it the first papers he signed when he became President? So quite a number of people who supported him thought he would move fast on the processing of the detainees to free those that should be freed. The expectation of processing the detainees with the objective of releasing those who need to be released is very real. Wasn't that central to the criticism of Bush? That he had been detaining people at Gitmo who had been wrongly accused? And should be free? Regular references were made to people who had been detained for as long as 7 years and the accusation that they could possibly be totally innocent was real. And no, Obama did not only sign off on closing of Guantanamo, but on moving the detainees to suitable alternative accommodation and expediting their processing. Perhaps he did not find this easy, as it was complicated from the very beginning, being the problem that the Bush Government had been facing as well. Perhaps also not enough recognition has been given for the clean-up that had been under way already by the time Obama signed the papers. Also, that not a single detainee has been freed after Obama took office and signed the papers. He put a monotarium on freeing the detainees until their files have been scrutinized by May.
 
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Mar 2009
422
4
Florida, USA
No, I have not been to Singapore, but where I am there is quite a big link with Singapore. One thing I found is that people find it very difficult to get jobs in Singapore and the cost of living is of the highest in the world. Hence why they are always looking for opportunities outside their country, and in a very aggressive competitive way.

Singapore ranks 13th in the latest survey. It does have the highest cost of living in SE Asia. Until recently Singapore has been recruiting expats very actively, but most of the recruiting has been in high tech and professional fields. It gets its laborers and servants mainly from Indonesia. So if you have a PhD in biology, you will find it easier to get work there.

I thought they were detainees, and not prisoners. There is quite a difference between detainees and prisoners. It is Obama who created expectations of a quick processing, isn't it the first papers he signed when he became President? So quite a number of people who supported him thought he would move fast on the processing of the detainees to free those that should be freed. The expectation of processing the detainees with the objective of releasing those who need to be released is very real. Wasn't that central to the criticism of Bush? That he had been detaining people at Gitmo who had been wrongly accused? And should be free? Regular references were made to people who had been detained for as long as 7 years and the accusation that they could possibly be totally innocent was real. And no, Obama did not only sign off on closing of Guantanamo, but on moving the detainees to suitable alternative accommodation and expediting their processing. Perhaps he did not find this easy, as it was complicated from the very beginning, being the problem that the Bush Government had been facing as well. Perhaps also not enough recognition has been given for the clean-up that had been under way already by the time Obama signed the papers. Also, that not a single detainee has been freed after Obama took office and signed the papers. He put a monotarium on freeing the detainees until their files have been scrutinized by May.

Calling them detainees was part of the game they played to get around the Geneva Convention. The 'detainees' were conveniently turned into prisoners whenever that could be used to justify something or other that they wanted to do.

I don't see what your problem is with the timing. The administration has been working hard at this since the beginning, and our allies have backed out of agreements, so it isn't going well. It has, again, been a little over three months. I don't know how things work where you are from, but getting anything done in that amount of time, when it involves negotiations with foreign countries, is a slow process.

I think that the reason countries like France and Australia are backing out of their agreements to take some of these people is that the ones who are left (Bush did let a lot go) are not quite the poor innocent victims the expected. Some one posted that Australia said they didn't qualify under thier immigration law. Well, duh! Australia assigns points based on specific criteria. They include English fluency, education beyond high school (a BS or MBA or Phd or something), having relatives already in Australia, or having skills that are not readily available in Australia. Of course you may not have a criminal record, either. When they made the offer, did they really think any of these people would qualify?
 
Mar 2009
2,188
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Singapore ranks 13th in the latest survey. It does have the highest cost of living in SE Asia. Until recently Singapore has been recruiting expats very actively, but most of the recruiting has been in high tech and professional fields. It gets its laborers and servants mainly from Indonesia. So if you have a PhD in biology, you will find it easier to get work there.
I think Singaporeans would look after their own people first in that category, as Singaporeans at this level, generally are very highly educated and do their post-graduate education in Universities abroad, such as the US, the UK etc. I think you would have to be someone with absolutely exceptional credentials to be allowed to work there. That still leaves the other people without PhDs. I have not found anyone from Singapore yet who has not had supurb education, they all have very high education standards, but not all of them can find suitable employment in the Singapore. That is why one can find them all over the world.



Calling them detainees was part of the game they played to get around the Geneva Convention. The 'detainees' were conveniently turned into prisoners whenever that could be used to justify something or other that they wanted to do.
Well, if the US would like to be successful in placing the detainees abroad, probably it is in their interest to stick with detainees. I doubt the world would stand for taking in US prisoners.

I don't see what your problem is with the timing. The administration has been working hard at this since the beginning, and our allies have backed out of agreements, so it isn't going well. It has, again, been a little over three months. I don't know how things work where you are from, but getting anything done in that amount of time, when it involves negotiations with foreign countries, is a slow process.
This is quite a recent article in Yahoo News:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090503/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_guantanamo_trials;_ylt=ApmKvtUd3v0R8TFenQqYB4q9IxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTJuamxpZ2U5BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkwNTAzL3VzX2d1YW50YW5hbW9fdHJpYWxzBGNwb3MDNwRwb3MDNwRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3JpZXMEc2xrA29mZmljaWFsc2dpdA --
Looks as though the Democrats wants a further postponement of 3 months from 20 May.The postponement includes a hold on the release of detainees from Gitmo, and that was not the case at the time when Bush ended his Presidency. There are detainees in Gitmo who can be released, but a decision was made that all files need to be neatly studied first. I can imagine that people are going to be very disappointed if the request for a further 3-month delay will be approved. I like the following wording in the article:
Paul F. Rothstein, a Georgetown University legal ethics professor, said the dilemma highlights differences between campaign rhetoric and the realities of the courtroom.

"Once you become president and see the whole panoply of issued that you face, some of the things that seemed easy to promise or talk about during the campaign sometimes appear more difficult," Rothstein said Saturday. "Elections are fought on big slogans without much nuance or detail. I think we want a president who responds to what he sees when he actually gets in there and sees the whole picture, rather than one who adheres rigidly to what he said before."

I think that the reason countries like France and Australia are backing out of their agreements to take some of these people is that the ones who are left (Bush did let a lot go) are not quite the poor innocent victims the expected.
Exactly, but then that is not the picture the world had via the media at the time when Obama became President. During his election campaign Obama received quite a bit of mileage out of the "innocent detainees" of Gitmo.
 
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Mar 2009
422
4
Florida, USA
I think Singaporeans would look after their own people first in that category, as Singaporeans at this level, generally are very highly educated and do their post-graduate education in Universities abroad, such as the US, the UK etc. I think you would have to be someone with absolutely exceptional credentials to be allowed to work there. That still leaves the other people without PhDs. I have not found anyone from Singapore yet who has not had supurb education, they all have very high education standards, but not all of them can find suitable employment in the Singapore. That is why one can find them all over the world.



Well, if the US would like to be successful in placing the detainees abroad, probably it is in their interest to stick with detainees. I doubt the world would stand for taking in US prisoners.


This is quite a recent article in Yahoo News:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090503/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_guantanamo_trials;_ylt=ApmKvtUd3v0R8TFenQqYB4q9IxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTJuamxpZ2U5BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkwNTAzL3VzX2d1YW50YW5hbW9fdHJpYWxzBGNwb3MDNwRwb3MDNwRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3JpZXMEc2xrA29mZmljaWFsc2dpdA --
Looks as though the Democrats wants a further postponement of 3 months from 20 May.The postponement includes a hold on the release of detainees from Gitmo, and that was not the case at the time when Bush ended his Presidency. There are detainees in Gitmo who can be released, but a decision was made that all files need to be neatly studied first. I can imagine that people are going to be very disappointed if the request for a further 3-month delay will be approved. I like the following wording in the article:



Most of the basic jobs, and certainly the dirty jobs, are done by Indonesians and Malaysians. There are people from these countries that get some of the high-tech jobs, too. So there is a kind of 2-tier immigration population, the extremely well-educated, and the laborers.

I think there was less rhetoric about their 'innocence' and more about the way we treated them. We had the Attorney General bragging about finding a way around the Geneva Convention! We denied them attorneys and contact with their emabassies, and tortured them. We lowered ourselves to the level of the government we were fighting. And for nothing. The people who perpetrated this travesty are struggling to find some information they got that they can claim was useful, let alone useful enough to justify what we did.
 
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Mar 2009
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Most of the basic jobs, and certainly the dirty jobs, are done by Indonesians and Malaysians. There are people from these countries that get some of the high-tech jobs, too. So there is a kind of 2-tier immigration population, the extremely well-educated, and the laborers.
Would this then mean too that there is a large gap between the rich and the poor?
 
Mar 2009
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4
Florida, USA
Yes, and most of the lower tier workers are temporary and get sent home when the economy goes south.
 
May 2010
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0
I think it's a bit too early to still just Obama. I wouldn't be so quick to put him in the list of worst american presidents ever. i think we should give him some more time.
 
May 2010
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0
I am not sure how many of you use Facebook, but the LivingSocial application is becoming quite popular nowadays. It allows people to pick their top five for virtually anything. I recently installed it and picked my top five worst US Presidents and thought it'd be a good topic of conversation here on Political Fray. Anyway, here was my top 5 worst United States Presidents as well as a brief explanation of why I chose them:

1) Barack Obama- I know it is still early for him, but his policies are very similar to those of FDR's and without a sound currency to fall back on, that could be very dangerous. Furthermore, a lot of his actions are unconstitutional as well.

2) FDR- The New Deal extended the Depression and made it worse and it left us with programs that are creating huge problems today- Fannie and Freddie and social security to name a couple.

3) Lyndon B. Johnson- "The Great Society" was a huge push towards socialism and although everything he wanted didn't go through, his time in office really pushed this country away from capitalism and we are seeing consequences of that now.

4) Woodrow Wilson- He created the Federal Reserve, tried for a world governing body in the League of Nations, passed the Clayton Act, re-imposed the Federal income tax...

5) George W. Bush- Started the Iraq War, supported Greenspan's low rate policies, passed the Patriot Act, increased the size of government...

So who do you all think are the worst five and what do you think of my selections?

I didn't want to comment on your rating but I want to ask one thing here that is WAR only solution for every president for the world peace?
 
Dec 2009
119
0
Canada
Bush spent much more than Obama. Not only that, but he spent money when times were actually not bad. I appreciate Obama's efforts to improve diplomatic relations with others and putting the United States in an international scale. He's essentially making some other countries think more highly of the United States, something Bush didn't really care about.

If anything, I wouldn't call him radical. Most other countries have seen a lot of his policies before. Not only that, his approval rating by Non-Americans is actually very high. The War in Iraq didn't have much other than for the execution of Saddam. They thought he had a stockpile of nuclear weapons, but they didn't find one.
 
Apr 2009
1,943
5
Disunited Queendom
Americans decided they didn't like Barack Obama when they discovered, to their dismay, that they hadn't just voted Tiger Woods into office. :rolleyes:

I don't know that I can choose any. I don't know enough about American political history to make an informed decision, and I think it would be tough as many were pretty awful.

Jokes aside, with Obama, I really think he is far off the worst. He's a centrist, and that's very nice, but I think he should run off and play, while the grown ups talk about what we should actually do to build a better society.
 
Jul 2009
5,893
474
Port St. Lucie
Americans decided they didn't like Barack Obama when they discovered, to their dismay, that they hadn't just voted Tiger Woods into office. :rolleyes:

I don't know that I can choose any. I don't know enough about American political history to make an informed decision, and I think it would be tough as many were pretty awful.

Jokes aside, with Obama, I really think he is far off the worst. He's a centrist, and that's very nice, but I think he should run off and play, while the grown ups talk about what we should actually do to build a better society.

So much for Obama being the messiah of the Left. I think the Right got really confused when the leader of the DSA declared Palin the most socialist candidate during the election. :giggle:
 
Apr 2009
1,943
5
Disunited Queendom
So much for Obama being the messiah of the Left. I think the Right got really confused when the leader of the DSA declared Palin the most socialist candidate during the election. :giggle:

Share the wealth! I almost did the whole raised fist thing - Haha! :rolleyes: ;)
 
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