Muslims and Free Speech

[clax]

But many people contend that it is NOT a religion. They also contend that it is in violation of the US Constitution Supremacy Clause (Article 6, Section 2) because of its supremacism, as well as being in violation of US Code 2384 (Seditious Conspiracy).

same could be said for judaism and christianity, read leviticus, exodus, and Genesis. I believe they call for death to adulterers , homosexuals, nonbelievers, people who disobey priests. I would think that the bizarre text in any religion especially one that is based on judaism is subject to the same scrutiny.

How would you define a religion? Because that term is quite broad

And the jihadists are a lot more than "a couple of nuts". There are hundreds of Muslim Brotherhood front groups operating in the US, each of them with hundreds of members, all dedicated to destroying America and replacing it with an Islamic state, which would be the farthest thing from free speech that anyone ever dreamed of.

All muslims our just some? If it isn't everybody in the Islam religion or spiritual path or whatever you call it, it isn't logical to pick out this religion. Not all Christians blow up planned parent hood, some do, I know the numbers of that are vastly smaller but the point still stands.

Here's a sample of those groups:

Muslim Brotherhood front groups in America

CAIR, ISNA, MAS, MSA, ICNA, FCNA, MAYA, AEF, UASR, IAP, BMI, IIIT, IMANA, AMSE, ICNA, Islamic Institute, AMC, AMF, Success Foundation, GSISS AKA Cordoba University, NAIF, IIFTIKHAR, AMSS, TIAA, IRO, African Muslim Agency, Safa Trust, SAAR Foundation, MMCT, Dar El-Eiman USA, ADAMS, IANA, GRF, MWL, MYNA, HHT, Islamic Academy of Florida, Fairfax Institute, AMT, IIFSO, AMCE, AMAFVAC, CISNA, Isalmic Media Foundation, et al

http://muslimbrotherhoodinamerica.com/

[/QUOTE]
Fair enough but these groups don't represent all muslims.

 

[Protectionist]

I think I see where you're slipping up. Islamism isn't Islam, it's a social conservative ideology. It's no more a religion then Evangelicalism is. It's a religiously motivated but secular political philosophy.

Islam on the other hand is a religion (with a code of ethics calling for charity, defense of the weak, respect for other Abrahamic religions, opposition to tyranny, etc.).

It sounds like you know nothing of the Koran. I've been reading it since 1959, and I've read it in 18 different translations, most recent of which were Pickthall, Arberry, Dawood, Ali, and Shakir. The Koran is loaded with the most UNethical things there ever could be.

Listen to what a Muslim leader says about it. In the words of Baitullah Mehsud, a Taliban leader in Afghanistan, and bin Laden supporter >>> "Allah, on 480 occasions in the holy Koran extols Muslims to wage jihad. We only fulfill God's orders. Only jihad can bring peace to the world. We will continue our struggle until foreign troops are thrown out. Then we will attack them in the U.S. and Britain until they either accept Islam or agree to pay jizyah."

You are simply wrong. Islamism IS Islam. Every bit of it. Again I say, the Islamists, jihadists, terrorists of today did not create the Koran. The Koran created them, and it continues to do that every day.

The characterization that you present here for Islam, is the standard talking point piece of the Muslim Brotherhood.

 

[Protectionist]

same could be said for judaism and christianity, read leviticus, exodus, and Genesis. I believe they call for death to adulterers , homosexuals, nonbelievers, people who disobey priests. I would think that the bizarre text in any religion especially one that is based on judaism is subject to the same scrutiny.

How would you define a religion? Because that term is quite broad


All muslims our just some? If it isn't everybody in the Islam religion or spiritual path or whatever you call it, it isn't logical to pick out this religion. Not all Christians blow up planned parent hood, some do, I know the numbers of that are vastly smaller but the point still stands.

Here's a sample of those groups:

Fair enough but these groups don't represent all muslims.[/QUOTE]

1. FALSE! NO, the same CANNOT be said of judaism and christianity, because unlike Islam THEY ARE NOT SUPREMACIST. And all the bible passages you mentioned are Old Testament, bible of the Jews, not Christians.

2. Are you reading the thread ? I already stated what a religion is in Post # 74.

3. I didn't say they represented ALL Muslims, but they sure represent an awful lot of Muslims, and it should be remembered that major changes can be enacted in societies by very small #s of people. World War II (the biggest war in all of history) was started by one man > Adolf Hitler. One man can kill dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of people. And a whole society can be changed by MONEY and Political Influence, rather than a large population.

4. Nobody is "picking out this religion". Islam is in the spotlight regarding violent and stealth jihad, because recent history has recorded Islam doing those things in very great amounts.

 

[clax]

It sounds like you know nothing of the Koran. I've been reading it since 1959, and I've read it in 18 different translations, most recent of which were Pickthall, Arberry, Dawood, Ali, and Shakir. The Koran is loaded with the most UNethical things there ever could be.

Listen to what a Muslim leader says about it. In the words of Baitullah Mehsud, a Taliban leader in Afghanistan, and bin Laden supporter >>> "Allah, on 480 occasions in the holy Koran extols Muslims to wage jihad. We only fulfill God's orders. Only jihad can bring peace to the world. We will continue our struggle until foreign troops are thrown out. Then we will attack them in the U.S. and Britain until they either accept Islam or agree to pay jizyah."

You are simply wrong. Islamism IS Islam. Every bit of it. Again I say, the Islamists, jihadists, terrorists of today did not create the Koran. The Koran created them, and it continues to do that every day.

The characterization that you present here for Islam, is the standard talking point piece of the Muslim Brotherhood.

You have to prove that every single Muslim seeks to wage jihad for me to be wrong. I understand you disagree with the text, frankly I think it is pretty nasty too, but just like all Jews and Christians don't execute homosexuals and adulterers and non believers as commanded in the Bible and Torah, some muslims don't aside by their spiritual text to the letter either, this behavior should be rewarded.

I don't believe you that Islam makes terrorists, you have to prove that. Posting passages from a spiritual book proves that the book us spiritual nothing else.

 

[Protectionist]

You have to prove that every single Muslim seeks to wage jihad for me to be wrong. I understand you disagree with the text, frankly I think it is pretty nasty too, but just like all Jews and Christians don't execute homosexuals and adulterers and non believers as commanded in the Bible and Torah, some muslims don't aside by their spiritual text to the letter either, this behavior should be rewarded.

I don't believe you that Islam makes terrorists, you have to prove that. Posting passages from a spiritual book proves that the book us spiritual nothing else.

I didn't say YOU were wrong. I said David was wrong (in his Post # 82). And No, I don't have to prove that every single Muslim seeks to wage jihad, although I could easily do that. Evfery single Muslim whe really IS A MUSLIM (ie. follows the Koran word for word) IS indeed a jihadist. If he were not a jihadist, then he would not really be Muslim.

Part of the misconception here is that all those people who call themselves "Muslim" are not Muslim. If a person lives in a homosexual relationship, has a dog, eats pork products, and drinks alchohol, you're gonna call them a Muslim just because they say so ? Not hardly.

Being a Muslim means that you follow the Koran and Hadith, not what you call yourself. The "some Muslims" you refer to, are NOT Muslims, I don't care if they attend a mosque, say prayers in Arabic 5 times a day, wash their feet during the day, or even wear a burka. No follow Koran - No be Muslim.

And as for you not believing that Islam makes terrorists, what's the matter ? The words of Osama bin Laden aren't good enough for you ? And those of Muslim clerics ? And those of terrorists, as reported by counterterrorism officials all over the world ? Who do you want to hear it from ? God ?

 

[Protectionist]

I can't believe 43 more posts have gone by (since my post # 43) and no one has commented on the link story in that post (which goes to the heart of this TOPIC >> "Muslims and Free Speech"

Here it is again: (this thing won't quit being bold print)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...573bd4-116d-11e2-a16b-2c110031514a_story.html

 

[clax]

I didn't say YOU were wrong. I said David was wrong (in his Post # 82). And No, I don't have to prove that every single Muslim seeks to wage jihad, although I could easily do that. Evfery single Muslim whe really IS A MUSLIM (ie. follows the Koran word for word) IS indeed a jihadist. If he were not a jihadist, then he would not really be Muslim.

Part of the misconception here is that all those people who call themselves "Muslim" are not Muslim. If a person lives in a homosexual relationship, has a dog, eats pork products, and drinks alchohol, you're gonna call them a Muslim just because they say so ? Not hardly.

Being a Muslim means that you follow the Koran and Hadith, not what you call yourself. The "some Muslims" you refer to, are NOT Muslims, I don't care if they attend a mosque, say prayers in Arabic 5 times a day, wash their feet during the day, or even wear a burka. No follow Koran - No be Muslim.

And as for you not believing that Islam makes terrorists, what's the matter ? The words of Osama bin Laden aren't good enough for you ? And those of Muslim clerics ? And those of terrorists, as reported by counterterrorism officials all over the world ? Who do you want to hear it from ? God ?

If you don't follow the Koran to the letter you can't be Muslim? so then if you don't follow the Bible to the letter you can't be Christian. There fore if you are Christian by this definition you are a terrorist also. Because in leviticus it states you must kill adulterers, homosexual s and nonbelievers.[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

Really you are Muslim if you call yourself Muslim, being that there is no test to find your degree of Muslimness, we have to take people at their word. They know their relationship with God better than you do frankly i find it extremely arrogant that you think you get to decide what it means to be Muslim for the entire world.

I don't respect fundamentalism in any form, if you have to follow the Koran, Bible, Torah, or any religious text to the letter to be in that religion, than nobody is in any of them.

I am Christian and I am also in a gay relationship some people will tell me that can't be. That isn't your place. I am Christian because I say i am, that is all the credentials you need if you disagree with how I view christianity, go jump in a lake, it isn't your business. It isn't your word you don't get to define it.

To sum this up I reject your notion of what a Muslim is.

Your comment about Osama is confusing, he represents fundamentalists. Muslim clerics? I don't know any, some say to kill infidels, but some Christians, Jews, buddhists, hindus, and atheists say that. They represent the fringe, the minority.

If you ask the west borough baptist church they think they are following the Bible to the letter if you ask the Catholic church they think they are following ths Bible to the letter. And they both say that the other is not Christian. This is what you are doing with Islam, what are you trying to prove? All muslims should die?

 

[Protectionist]

If you don't follow the Koran to the letter you can't be Muslim? so then if you don't follow the Bible to the letter you can't be Christian. There fore if you are Christian by this definition you are a terrorist also. Because in leviticus it states you must kill adulterers, homosexual s and nonbelievers.

Really you are Muslim if you call yourself Muslim, being that there is no test to find your degree of Muslimness, we have to take people at their word. They know their relationship with God better than you do frankly i find it extremely arrogant that you think you get to decide what it means to be Muslim for the entire world.

I don't respect fundamentalism in any form, if you have to follow the Koran, Bible, Torah, or any religious text to the letter to be in that religion, than nobody is in any of them.

I am Christian and I am also in a gay relationship some people will tell me that can't be. That isn't your place. I am Christian because I say i am, that is all the credentials you need if you disagree with how I view christianity, go jump in a lake, it isn't your business. It isn't your word you don't get to define it.

To sum this up I reject your notion of what a Muslim is.

Your comment about Osama is confusing, he represents fundamentalists. Muslim clerics? I don't know any, some say to kill infidels, but some Christians, Jews, buddhists, hindus, and atheists say that. They represent the fringe, the minority.

If you ask the west borough baptist church they think they are following the Bible to the letter if you ask the Catholic church they think they are following ths Bible to the letter. And they both say that the other is not Christian. This is what you are doing with Islam, what are you trying to prove? All muslims should die?

1. Wrong analogy. Christianity comes from Jesus Christ, not any bible written by followers of him 70 years after his death. The Koran, however is synonomous with Islam.

2, Leviticus is The Book of Leviticus (from Greek Λευιτικός, Leuitikos, meaning "relating to the Levites"; Hebrew: ויקרא, Vayikra, "And He called") is the third book of the Hebrew Bible, and the third of five books of the Torah (or Pentateuch). Scholars are practically unanimous that the book had a long period of growth, that it includes some material of considerable antiquity, and that it reached its present form in the Persian period (538–332 BC) - hundreds of years before the birth of Christ. To call this "Christian" is ridiculous.

3. No you are NOT Muslim because you call yourself Muslim any more than someone is an airline pilot because they call themself that. LOL.

4. I don't decide what it means to be Muslim any more than I decide what it means to be an airline pilot, am Army veteran, or a pro baseball player. These things are what they are FACTUALLY, not by an opinion. If you find this arrogant, that's your problem.

5. Your being gay AND Christian isn't decided by me or by society. It's decided by Jesus Christ. Did HE say you could not be Christian while being gay ? If so, then you're not a Christian, no matter what you call yourself. That is IF HE said that, not some guys who wrote a books 70 tears after he died. Personally I can't see how homosexuality has a darn thing to do with religion or morality.

6. False to say nobody is in any of them. Plenty of people follow their religion to the letter (or at least they strive to). Plenty of Catholic priests, nuns, bishops, cardinals, etc. Plenty of Muslims in the Muslim Brotherhood, al Qaeda, et al.

7. The last part of your post is too scattered for me to even respond to. As for what all Muslims should do, in America, they are compelled to obey the Constitution and US law. By definition of their ideology, they cannot do that. Their ideology is riddled with violations of US law. There really is no way that Islam (in its current state) can be compatible with US society.

 

[clax]

1. Wrong analogy. Christianity comes from Jesus Christ, not any bible written by followers of him 70 years after his death. The Koran, however is synonomous with Islam.

2, Leviticus is The Book of Leviticus (from Greek Λευιτικός, Leuitikos, meaning "relating to the Levites"; Hebrew: ויקרא, Vayikra, "And He called") is the third book of the Hebrew Bible, and the third of five books of the Torah (or Pentateuch). Scholars are practically unanimous that the book had a long period of growth, that it includes some material of considerable antiquity, and that it reached its present form in the Persian period (538–332 BC) - hundreds of years before the birth of Christ. To call this "Christian" is ridiculous.

3. No you are NOT Muslim because you call yourself Muslim any more than someone is an airline pilot because they call themself that. LOL.

4. I don't decide what it means to be Muslim any more than I decide what it means to be an airline pilot, am Army veteran, or a pro baseball player. These things are what they are FACTUALLY, not by an opinion. If you find this arrogant, that's your problem.

5. Your being gay AND Christian isn't decided by me or by society. It's decided by Jesus Christ. Did HE say you could not be Christian while being gay ? If so, then you're not a Christian, no matter what you call yourself. That is IF HE said that, not some guys who wrote a books 70 tears after he died. Personally I can't see how homosexuality has a darn thing to do with religion or morality.

6. False to say nobody is in any of them. Plenty of people follow their religion to the letter (or at least they strive to). Plenty of Catholic priests, nuns, bishops, cardinals, etc. Plenty of Muslims in the Muslim Brotherhood, al Qaeda, et al.

7. The last part of your post is too scattered for me to even respond to. As for what all Muslims should do, in America, they are compelled to obey the Constitution and US law. By definition of their ideology, they cannot do that. Their ideology is riddled with violations of US law. There really is no way that Islam (in its current state) can be compatible with US society.

First airline pilot isn't a religion it is an occupation. Saying I am Christian is like saying I am a packers fan. Not like saying this is what I do for a living.
There is no real criteria for being a packers fan, other than you cheer for the packers.

I can use your same double talk you used for christianity. Islam is the following of the teachings of Mohammad, not the Koran. Christianity is based on the Bible, Islam is based on the Koran.

I don't accept your premise that you have to follow the Koran to the letter to be Muslim, that isn't true. no matter how many times you insist it is. There is no fact here this is a spirituality, not a science.

 

[Protectionist]

First airline pilot isn't a religion it is an occupation. Saying I am Christian is like saying I am a packers fan. Not like saying this is what I do for a living.
There is no real criteria for being a packers fan, other than you cheer for the packers.

I can use your same double talk you used for christianity. Islam is the following of the teachings of Mohammad, not the Koran. Christianity is based on the Bible, Islam is based on the Koran.

I don't accept your premise that you have to follow the Koran to the letter to be Muslim, that isn't true. no matter how many times you insist it is. There is no fact here this is a spirituality, not a science.

So if you say that one does not have to follow the Koran to be a Muslim, then what do you think establishes someone to be a Muslim ? Just to stand there and say "I'm a Muslim" ? LOL. That is preposterous. One is not a soldier because they say "I'm a soldier". That is something little boys do when they play in their backyards. You can deny the premise until you turn blue, green or whatever. The premise is correct. The Koran is the point of reference for being Muslim.

 

[tecoyah]

1. Wrong analogy. Christianity comes from Jesus Christ, not any bible written by followers of him 70 years after his death. The Koran, however is synonomous with Islam.

2, Leviticus is The Book of Leviticus (from Greek Λευιτικός, Leuitikos, meaning "relating to the Levites"; Hebrew: ויקרא, Vayikra, "And He called") is the third book of the Hebrew Bible, and the third of five books of the Torah (or Pentateuch). Scholars are practically unanimous that the book had a long period of growth, that it includes some material of considerable antiquity, and that it reached its present form in the Persian period (538–332 BC) - hundreds of years before the birth of Christ. To call this "Christian" is ridiculous.

3. No you are NOT Muslim because you call yourself Muslim any more than someone is an airline pilot because they call themself that. LOL.

4. I don't decide what it means to be Muslim any more than I decide what it means to be an airline pilot, am Army veteran, or a pro baseball player. These things are what they are FACTUALLY, not by an opinion. If you find this arrogant, that's your problem.

5. Your being gay AND Christian isn't decided by me or by society. It's decided by Jesus Christ. Did HE say you could not be Christian while being gay ? If so, then you're not a Christian, no matter what you call yourself. That is IF HE said that, not some guys who wrote a books 70 tears after he died. Personally I can't see how homosexuality has a darn thing to do with religion or morality.

6. False to say nobody is in any of them. Plenty of people follow their religion to the letter (or at least they strive to). Plenty of Catholic priests, nuns, bishops, cardinals, etc. Plenty of Muslims in the Muslim Brotherhood, al Qaeda, et al.

7. The last part of your post is too scattered for me to even respond to. As for what all Muslims should do, in America, they are compelled to obey the Constitution and US law. By definition of their ideology, they cannot do that. Their ideology is riddled with violations of US law. There really is no way that Islam (in its current state) can be compatible with US society.

You are obviously...the Christian God's prophet on Earth, as you know what it thinks and can thus speak for it with great authority. You know the Bible(s) better than all others and are capable of interpretation due to the direct communication you have with the great bearded man above....congratulations.

I will now ignore you completely as a member, as your understanding is beyond me.

 

[clax]

So if you say that one does not have to follow the Koran to be a Muslim, then what do you think establishes someone to be a Muslim ? Just to stand there and say "I'm a Muslim" ? LOL. That is preposterous. One is not a soldier because they say "I'm a soldier". That is something little boys do when they play in their backyards. You can deny the premise until you turn blue, green or whatever. The premise is correct. The Koran is the point of reference for being Muslim.

The Koran is doctrine, being Muslim, is following the teachings of Mohammad. So if you follow the teachings of Mohammad you are Muslim.

Being a soldier is a profession not a religion. Hi explained this fallacy the first time you used it. to be a soldier you have to be a member of the army. To be a Muslim you don't have to be a member of anything.

No matter how many times you attempt to define Islam, you offer no hard evidence. So until you can produce I see no reason to continue this discussion

 

[chris7375]

And there is no sun. And there is no moon. And grass is not green. And the sky is not blue. Anything else you would like to deny ? Pheeeeeww! (high-pitched whistle)

"I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers."
Quran 8:12, "The Spoils," Dawood, p. 177

"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them."​

Quran 9:5; "Repentance," Dawood, p. 186


"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate."[/SIZE]​

Quran 9:73, "Repentance," Dawood, p. 198

​

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous."
Quran 9:123, "Repentance," Dawood, p. 206

This is why people who cherry pick a text make me laugh.

[9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[9.6] And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

This text alone is not a call for a jihad :giggle: it is telling them they have the right to protect themselves from the unbeliever.

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
[8.14] This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.
[8.15] O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.
[8.16] And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day-- unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company-- then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.

Again you cherry pick one part of the book without revealing the rest. Yo are an expert you say? The way I read the following passages is yet again not a call for a jihad though more an explanation of God's wrath on unbelievers. I believer our New testament says things of a similar nature.

[9.72] Allah has promised to the believing men and the believing women gardens, beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them, and goodly dwellings in gardens of perpetual abode; and best of all is Allah's goodly pleasure; that is the grand achievement.
[9.73] O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.
[9.74] They swear by Allah that they did not speak, and certainly they did speak, the word of unbelief, and disbelieved after their Islam, and they had determined upon what they have not been able to effect, and they did not find fault except because Allah and His Apostle enriched them out of His grace; therefore if they repent, it will be good for them; and if they turn back, Allah will chastise them with a painful chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall not have in the land any guardian or a helper.

Where do you see a call for a jihad? I still have yet to see it. Again this text is about God's Wrath on the sinner and unbeliever. Yet again the New Testament of the Bible states similar things.

[9.122] And it does not beseem the believers that they should go forth all together; why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious?
[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
[9.124] And whenever a chapter is revealed, there are some of them who say: Which of you has it strengthened in faith? Then as for those who believe, it strengthens them in faith and they rejoice.

Where is the jihad calling in this passage. What I see is a call to fight a Spiritual battle. The hardness they are to show is there faith. Again does not the New Testament say this but in a different way.

None of the following passages call for a jihad.

What do you think jihad means Holy war lmao. If you do then you are way off the mark.

Most think this term means "holy war," an attempt to spread the Muslim religion and punish non-believers violently. And the Koran, like most sacred texts, leaves itself open to interpretation. The word comes from the Arabic word "jahada" which means "to struggle." It is a core concept of the Muslim religion and primarily refers to the internal struggle to be a better Muslim (by forsaking sin, controlling anger, and so on) and also the outer struggle to better mankind by spreading Islam.

That is what jihad means.

 

[Mermaid]

protect ;

al baqarah 191
And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.



fitnah : mischief making

 

[reader]

ALL of the Koran's verses have validity in EVERY age, until they are stricken out of the Koran. As long as Islam is not reformed, and these words remian in the Koran, TRUE Muslims will accept them as commands they are obligated to follow, as much as any other words of the Koran.

One of the problems of getting these bad parts of the Koran out of it, is that Muslims foolishly believe that the Koran is the word of God, and that can't be changed. Consequently, over the past 1400 years, not one word of the Koran has been changed.

As for guys like Zawahiri and bin Laden, they are leaders of Islamic jihad whose efforts have already resulted in the genocidal killings of thousands of non-Muslims.

I agree, modernization of religion in the making already for İslam too, it can be clearly seen when you compare it's current practice with the recent past, especially in these-muslim- countries that integrated into the world and economy. Laden, Pakistan etc they are explicable exceptions.

 

[Cerise]

When will Muslims as a whole stand up and condemn the actions of 'extremists' ? Please dont say the media doesnt report such a thing because there are surely enough Muslims around to make themselves heard. Why don't their leaders make constant and clear disassociation with terrorists actions?

 

[chris7375]

When will Muslims as a whole stand up and condemn the actions of 'extremists' ? Please dont say the media doesnt report such a thing because there are surely enough Muslims around to make themselves heard. Why don't their leaders make constant and clear disassociation with terrorists actions?

Why don't they speak up though most Muslims that I know and I know a few even though they deplore the violence that extremist use they agree with their fight.

They feel like they are occupied by foreign powers which is really what they are. How would you feel if the US or France invade and occupied Britain?

If China were to invade and occupy the US I would fight tooth and nail to rid of our occupation. If we left them alone and pulled out of those Muslim countries I doubt you would here word one from them. Do you hear of terrorist attacks on Russia.

The Answer is No since they pulled out of Afghanistan and other predominately Muslims countries they are left alone. So they learned the hard and expensive way.

That war in Afghanistan helped in a big way to make Communism collapse so they full well know what happens when you fight a people who don't want you to interfere in their lives or religion. The problem is we haven't.

 

[tecoyah]

Agreed, if we simply abandoned our ambitions across the middle east, let them all do what they have for thousands of years (kill each other), and stayed out of the entire mess we would be far better off.
Eventually the oil will be a non-issue as we are almost there now, then we just need worry about Israel. I hope by the time my kids can vote...we let them be who they are.

 

[chris7375]

Agreed, if we simply abandoned our ambitions across the middle east, let them all do what they have for thousands of years (kill each other), and stayed out of the entire mess we would be far better off.
Eventually the oil will be a non-issue as we are almost there now, then we just need worry about Israel. I hope by the time my kids can vote...we let them be who they are.

Israel is the only problem we should be involved in though not through force. Though Israel has shown it can take care of itself when it needs too.

 

[tecoyah]

Israel is the only problem we should be involved in though not through force. Though Israel has shown it can take care of itself when it needs too.

....+1....