Illegal to fail students if they believe in certain myths as opposed to facts?

myp · Feb 25, 2013

Polydectes said:
so the First Amendment holds us back?

in this case people stood up for it. people not doing that problem with our country

You getting a test question wrong because you got it wrong does not violate the 1st amendment

- That aside, the 1st amendment does not fully apply in most schools- everyone already knows that- you can't go in school and start cursing or saying whatever you want- you give up part of that right when you go to school. But really this whole 1st amendment thing has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Polydectes · Feb 25, 2013

myp said:
You getting a test question wrong because you got it wrong does not violate the 1st amendment - That aside, the 1st amendment does not fully apply in most schools- everyone already knows that- you can't go in school and start cursing or saying whatever you want- you give up part of that right when you go to school. But really this whole 1st amendment thing has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

it has everything to do with it, this is a school that serve the community, the community pays for the school, the community dictates curriculum. it doesn't work any other way.

David · Feb 25, 2013

Polydectes said:
it has everything to do with it, this is a school that serve the community, the community pays for the school, the community dictates curriculum. it doesn't work any other way.

The last time people started messing with facts and public education like this the Middle Age happened...

Polydectes · Feb 25, 2013

David said:
The last time people started messing with facts and public education like this the Middle Age happened...

What public education? Prior to the middle ages?

myp · Feb 25, 2013

Polydectes said:
it has everything to do with it, this is a school that serve the community, the community pays for the school, the community dictates curriculum. it doesn't work any other way.

So if we want to teach our kids about hobgoblins and fairies, that is fine with you too? You might be part of the community, but so am I (and people like you and I)...

Polydectes · Feb 25, 2013

myp said:
So if we want to teach our kids about hobgoblins and fairies, that is fine with you too? You might be part of the community, but so am I (and people like you and I)...

will you have to stand up for what you believe in, if you're outnumbered 10 to 1 find a new community.

religious belief is hardly fairy tales in hobgoblins. most people in the world are religious you have to do with that.

nobody's putting your believes down, why is it so necessary that you do it to others?

it's okay if you don't share them, and this law doesn't say that it's not. it just says we can't flunk kids for having beliefs. you act as though someone screaming their beliefs down your throat, that isn't the case here they're just stopping people with your police from criminal them down others throats.

myp · Feb 25, 2013

Polydectes said:
will you have to stand up for what you believe in, if you're outnumbered 10 to 1 find a new community.

religious belief is hardly fairy tales in hobgoblins. most people in the world are religious you have to do with that.

nobody's putting your believes down, why is it so necessary that you do it to others?

it's okay if you don't share them, and this law doesn't say that it's not. it just says we can't flunk kids for having beliefs. you act as though someone screaming their beliefs down your throat, that isn't the case here they're just stopping people with your police from criminal them down others throats.

There is a realm for beliefs and a realm where beliefs don't matter because we know the facts. I am sure you agree there. Again, you agree that 1+1=3 should not be a viable argument in school, right? Our difference lies in where that margin between belief and fact lies when it comes to evolution. I believe that is because you have not looked at the actual data and evidence going by what you have said in this thread. And if you have, then I have no idea how you believe in gravity, germ theory, etc. and for whatever reason pick aside evolution as "different". Does this about sum up where we are in this debate?

Polydectes · Feb 25, 2013

myp said:
There is a realm for beliefs and a realm where beliefs don't matter because we know the facts. I am sure you agree there. Again, you agree that 1+1=3 should not be a viable argument in school, right? Our difference lies in where that margin between belief and fact lies when it comes to evolution. I believe that is because you have not looked at the actual data and evidence going by what you have said in this thread. And if you have, then I have no idea how you believe in gravity, germ theory, etc. and for whatever reason pick aside evolution as "different". Does this about sum up where we are in this debate?

None of what you said is really the issue. A community who pays for the school gets to dictate curriculum. If teachers simply respected that then there would be no need for such a law.

Some people think religious beliefs are more important than fact. It isn't the schools place to say otherwise.

I never said I believe in creation, in fact I said I didn't know, perhaps I don't have the conclusive data, but it really isn't of much importance to me. Or this issue, this is about people deciding what their children get to learn.

myp · Feb 25, 2013

Polydectes said:
None of what you said is really the issue. A community who pays for the school gets to dictate curriculum. If teachers simply respected that then there would be no need for such a law.

Some people think religious beliefs are more important than fact. It isn't the schools place to say otherwise.

I never said I believe in creation, in fact I said I didn't know, perhaps I don't have the conclusive data, but it really isn't of much importance to me. Or this issue, this is about people deciding what their children get to learn.

Is religious teaching not for the home and not for school? I think our point of contention might be in whether evolution is fact or belief. I am saying it is fact and given that, it should be taught. And really, it is fact by any measure of the word. Rejecting that is pretty much rejecting all modern science. Religion is religion and should not be taught in public schools. When facts trump religion, facts win because facts are facts. (also I am sure that school gets funding/support from more than one source- local, state, AND federal- including my tax dollars).

Polydectes · Feb 25, 2013

myp said:
Is religious teaching not for the home and not for school? I think our point of contention might be in whether evolution is fact or belief. I am saying it is fact and given that, it should be taught. And really, it is fact by any measure of the word. Rejecting that is pretty much rejecting all modern science. Religion is religion and should not be taught in public schools. When facts trump religion, facts win because facts are facts. (also I am sure that school gets funding/support from more than one source- local, state, AND federal- including my tax dollars).

we're not talking about religious teachings, just not discriminating against people for having a religion.

those who all doesn't say teach kids that God created everything.

myp · Feb 25, 2013

Polydectes said:
we're not talking about religious teachings, just not discriminating against people for having a religion.

those who all doesn't say teach kids that God created everything.

To even suggest that dinosaurs were around with humans is wrong.

If we are teaching evolutionary fact, but then can't penalize them on a test when they misunderstand it, then what is the point in testing them at all? Or are you suggesting it shouldn't be taught at all? And in that case, why should any other scientific theory be taught?

David · Feb 25, 2013

Polydectes said:
What public education? Prior to the middle ages?

Wasn't anything like today but the Romans had a pretty good education system, even the slaves were literate. Then a bunch of superstitious BS got mixed in in the rare case of a school not closing after the Germans took over and 800 years of bloody, ignorant near anarchy ensued.

Polydectes · Feb 25, 2013

myp said:
Is religious teaching not for the home and not for school? I think our point of contention might be in whether evolution is fact or belief. I am saying it is fact and given that, it should be taught. And really, it is fact by any measure of the word. Rejecting that is pretty much rejecting all modern science. Religion is religion and should not be taught in public schools. When facts trump religion, facts win because facts are facts. (also I am sure that school gets funding/support from more than one source- local, state, AND federal- including my tax dollars).

I'm sorry but if you're saying that religion shouldn't be taught in schools, public schools that is, it really has nothing to do this law.

the law isn't saying that you must accept dinosaurs and man coexist, but in some religious sects the cannot accept evolution. this law prevents discrimination against those people.

it's almost as if you want how to make it where everyone must agree with you to have a high school diploma.

alarm didn't say they have to teach any biblical business, just the thing can't discriminate against people who believe in it.

I graduated from a Jesuit school, I had theology classes all through my school career. most of the students 95 percent of them graduated from college. 2 people I graduated with are doctors, I have an MBA. I don't know what to believe about this, mainly because I don't care but we grew up learning about God, I am not religious.

Polydectes · Feb 25, 2013

myp said:
To even suggest that dinosaurs were around with humans is wrong.

If we are teaching evolutionary fact, but then can't penalize them on a test when they misunderstand it, then what is the point in testing them at all? Or are you suggesting it shouldn't be taught at all? And in that case, why should any other scientific theory be taught?

this isn't about a misunderstanding, it's a rejection based on a religious believe. the schools are punishing people for religious beliefs, that is not their place.

Polydectes · Feb 25, 2013

David said:
Wasn't anything like today but the Romans had a pretty good education system, even the slaves were literate. Then a bunch of superstitious BS got mixed in in the rare case of a school not closing after the Germans took over and 800 years of bloody, ignorant near anarchy ensued.

well that has nothing to do with this.

myp · Feb 25, 2013

Polydectes said:
this isn't about a misunderstanding, it's a rejection based on a religious believe. the schools are punishing people for religious beliefs, that is not their place.

So how would you handle the case where a person follows a very peculiar religion in which his religion conflicts all data on everything? The person becomes virtually unfailable under your system.

Also, if you accept that evolution is fact, then how can you say the religious belief matters? Clearly fact is fact and that's that. The belief is wrong. They can't both be right after all since they say the opposite thing.

Polydectes · Feb 25, 2013

myp said:
So how would you handle the case where a person follows a very peculiar religion in which his religion conflicts all data on everything? The person becomes virtually unfailable under your system.

Also, if you accept that evolution is fact, then how can you say the religious belief matters? Clearly fact is fact and that's that. The belief is wrong. They can't both be right after all since they say the opposite thing.

you went off on a tangent about whether or not evolution is superior to creation. this law has nothing to do with that. it simply states that a school can not flunk a student 4 being religious.

this scientific fact that you speak about really doesn't matter to me. as I said before I am not religious so religious beliefs don't matter to me much either.

some peoples religion matters to them you want them not to matter that's fascism

Polydectes · Feb 25, 2013

myp said:
So how would you handle the case where a person follows a very peculiar religion in which his religion conflicts all data on everything? The person becomes virtually unfailable under your

What peculiar religion are you talking about?

What religious beliefs reject English, history, mathematics and social studies?

Polydectes · Feb 25, 2013

myp said:
Also, if you accept that evolution is fact, then how can you say the religious belief matters? Clearly fact is fact and that's that. The belief is wrong. They can't both be right after all since they say the opposite thing.

I say that peoples religious beliefs matter, because they matter to them, and to peace and tolerance.

People can believe in what ever they want, I am nobody to say their beliefs are wrong, I expect the same courtesy, I typically receive it.

Some people only exist to please their God, facts are of little concern to them, so what matters is relative.

myp · Feb 25, 2013

Polydectes said:
What peculiar religion are you talking about?

What religious beliefs reject English, history, mathematics and social studies?

The 1st amendment protects free religious practice (minus what has been defined by the courts over the years as not under the 1st amendment). If I make up a religion that rejects everything- perhaps in the shadow of the original Greek Skeptics, then I become unfailable under your system.

Sorry, but I don't care if you choose to brainwash your kids. School is about learning and kids should be taught about the real world. Now when they go home and what their parents tell them there is a whole other story- the parents can (foolishly) just say don't buy that malarkey if they really want to, but the kid needs to still understand what evolution is.

Illegal to fail students if they believe in certain myths as opposed to facts?

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