Illegal to fail students if they believe in certain myths as opposed to facts?

myp · Apr 10, 2013

Polydectes said:
There is no such religion, you can't just invent a religion and pretend it protects you from reality. Otherwise people would invent religions to commit crime.

Does the religion of myp have any tenets or guidelines or any structure at all our us out some bogus hypothetical that you think is clever?

If you could come up with a real religion that would make this hypothetical not just a complete dodge and a wormy little way of supporting your ridiculous argument.

No religion would say that mathematics have a new function. If so what is the spiritual significance?

This proves not only do you not understand religion you don't even understand the purpose of it. You have no place in this debate, everything you say is biased against religion and you repeatedly said you weren't, you are a liar and you have no credibility.

Do you not understand the 1st amendment? You can invent a religion and call it your religion. That's the whole point. What makes a religion a religion? Some Christians might claim Islam, Hinduism, or something else is not a religion and vice-versa. But clearly they are all religions because the people who follow them say they are. Scientology was made very recently- but it is still a religion.

myp · Apr 10, 2013

Polydectes said:
Religion is typically a reflection of culture, and it comes from people but it is a cultural device to help people coexist.

Dreaming up something to fight coexistence isn't what religion is.

Who the hell are you to say that my belief in a God that centers around 1+1=3 is not a legitimate religion? Who are you to say it is there to merely "fight" coexistence, which I am clearly not trying to do?

myp · Apr 10, 2013

Polydectes said:
Now if you are using the Westborough baptist church as the example our similar fundamentalists you are not informed on christianity, because that is about 2% of Christians. Why fight them? Let them make fools of themselves.

Lol, so your argument pretty much boils down to "what I say is religion and that is that- nothing else is religion". That's probably even worse than you trying to decide what fact is based on opinion since religion is actually a matter of opinion to begin with unlike fact.

myp · Apr 10, 2013

Polydectes said:
If that is what you are trying to prove you are terrible at it, because I never suggested that schools use that method. In fact I support the teaching of evolution in school as I have repeatedly said over and over again. This is why I say that you don't understand my agreement, because you have no idea what it is. That is apparent by this post. Please go through all of my posts and prove where I suggested that schools teach by such a methods that would be interesting to see how you dreamed up this nonsense.

Never said you were against teaching evolution. Strawmans are getting old. Try again.

Polydectes said:
What I am arguing is that a child that refuses to accept evolution isn't stupid, but convicted to his belief. Evolution is easy enough to follow and the child probably understands it, he just refuses to accept it. Mainly because it conflicts with his religion. So by failing a student meaning they don't get a diploma, that is what failing school is you are in effect engineering school to stamp out christianity. That shouldn't be the purpose of school, because there is a separation of church and state.

EXACTLY there is a separation of state and church. Religion doesn't matter in school. If a kid gets a fact wrong like evolution or 1+1 on a test, he gets marked off for it. Simple as that.

Polydectes said:
It is unconstitutional to fail kids for their beliefs.

No one is failing them for the belief though and that is the whole point you seem to miss here. They are failing them for substituting fact for that belief on a test or class assignment. Those are 2 very different things. The children are still free to go home and believe what they want. Again, if the kid believed 1+1=3, he would get a question wrong if he wrote it on the test, but that doesn't stop him from writing the factual answer on a test and then going home and believing 1+1=3 should he want to.

Polydectes · Apr 10, 2013

myp said:
Do you not understand the 1st amendment? You can invent a religion and call it your religion. That's the whole point. What makes a religion a religion? Some Christians might claim Islam, Hinduism, or something else is not a religion and vice-versa. But clearly they are all religions because the people who follow them say they are. Scientology was made very recently- but it is still a religion.

No, scientology is a cult. What makes a religion a religion I already explained, why can't you read. You are free to invent a religion, but if you are the only practitioner I don't think that qualifies.

Polydectes · Apr 10, 2013

myp said:
Who the hell are you to say that my belief in a God that centers around 1+1=3 is not a legitimate religion? Who are you to say it is there to merely "fight" coexistence, which I am clearly not trying to do?

How does this fallacy bring you closer to any God, I would live am explosion. Its exactly what you are trying to do, or do you really have such religion? If so how date you mock creationists.

Polydectes · Apr 10, 2013

myp said:
Lol, so your argument pretty much boils down to "what I say is religion and that is that- nothing else is religion". That's probably even worse than you trying to decide what fact is based on opinion since religion is actually a matter of opinion to begin with unlike fact.

Wild accusations and clear misunderstanding of my position. Thus post of yours makes no sense.

Polydectes · Apr 10, 2013

myp said:
Never said you were against teaching evolution. Strawmans are getting old. Try again.

your lies are getting old, you have repeatedly misrepresented my argument. Because you really don't understand it.

myp said:
EXACTLY there is a separation of state and church. Religion doesn't matter in school. If a kid gets a fact wrong like evolution or 1+1 on a test, he gets marked off for it. Simple as that.

Evolution isn't fact, please prove it, I all for the thousandth time and you will fail. So if it isn't fact it is assumption weather the assumption is founded or not doesn't make it more valid. why the school thinks they need to get involved in the beliefs of others is beyond me.

myp said:
No one is failing them for the belief though and that is the whole point you seem to miss here. They are failing them for substituting fact for that belief on a test or class assignment. Those are 2 very different things. The children are still free to go home and believe what they want. Again, if the kid believed 1+1=3, he would get a question wrong if he wrote it on the test, but that doesn't stop him from writing the factual answer on a test and then going home and believing 1+1=3 should he want to.

You shouldn't fail for missing a few questions on a test, that aren't based in fact. If a Advil makes accepting evolution 31% of its grade it is doing so to be punitive to children that believe in creation. It is a violation of the first amendment. The class for such studies are not even core curriculum.

Why would a child believe 1+1=3 what religion says that? And explain proof as simple as I did why 1+1 could not equal 3.

myp · Apr 10, 2013

Polydectes said:
No, scientology is a cult. What makes a religion a religion I already explained, why can't you read. You are free to invent a religion, but if you are the only practitioner I don't think that qualifies.

Lol, who gets to decide what is and is not a religion? Considering the IRS considers scientology a religion as do its followers, I think it is safe to say it is a religion at least as far as the US is concerned (including the 1st amendment). Scientology status by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

myp · Apr 10, 2013

Polydectes said:
How does this fallacy bring you closer to any God, I would live am explosion. Its exactly what you are trying to do, or do you really have such religion? If so how date you mock creationists.

It is not a mockery- it is an example of how such a religion could exist. Why are you hating on my religion should that be it? Doesn't that make you the anti-religious one ironically?

myp · Apr 10, 2013

Polydectes said:
Why would a child believe 1+1=3 what religion says that? And explain proof as simple as I did why 1+1 could not equal 3.

What is your basis of proof? That is the whole issue here and one you keep evading. Answer it please.

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

myp said:
Lol, who gets to decide what is and is not a religion? Considering the IRS considers scientology a religion as do its followers, I think it is safe to say it is a religion at least as far as the US is concerned (including the 1st amendment). Scientology status by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Okay scientology is a religion, more of a cult, but yours isn't. I doubt that the IRS considers your nonsense a religion.

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

myp said:
It is not a mockery- it is an example of how such a religion could exist. Why are you hating on my religion should that be it? Doesn't that make you the anti-religious one ironically?

Your religion isn't real. Or do you really believe 1+1=3 if so you really have no business saying anybody else's religion is not valid.

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

myp said:
What is your basis of proof? That is the whole issue here and one you keep evading. Answer it please.

I am not playing this game with you any longer. If simple mathematics are out of your grasp you have no business discussing evolution.

Now if you want to talk about thus like an adult i would be willing to do so.

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

Bottom line, how does it violate anybody's rights to not fail a kid for believing in God? Of out us a deportation of church and state issue, fine, we will not teach anything but evolution in schools, there church and state remain separate.

I don't see how it takes away from anybody if kids don't accept evolution, yet don't force the schools to teach it.

Laws should be made to protect rights, but not at the cost of others rights. I don't see how this effects anybody but the kids that believe in creationism to the extent they refuse to accept evolution. It isn't like teacher is going to punish an atheist kid for not believing in creationism or that they would even be teaching such things. Besides you don't want you kid believing in creation you teach them about evolution. That us what creationist parents do. They even have to fight against the school system. All an atheist or evolutionist has to do is say "listen to your teacher not the God people" so its even easier for you.

I don't get how an atheist or evolutionist can be against this, does it please you to force religious people to accept your ideals? Or fail them for not doing so? Or have them pay lip service to something utterly absurd to them in order to lie their way to an A? Either they mindlessly agree with evolutionists or they refuse, either way that isn't education, that is bullying. "believe what I tell you or pretend you do and make a mockery of education by feeding the system BS.

I got a better idea, instead of evolutionist and creationists bickering in this never ending battle why not produce some concrete proof? The respective sides always talk about how their side is truth, both can't be truth at the same time apparently. So get up, stop whining, prove whichever and win a Nobel prize, otherwise stop with the bickering.

tecoyah · Apr 11, 2013

Polydectes said:
....snip....

"listen to your teacher not the God people"

I got a better idea, instead of evolutionist and creationists bickering in this never ending battle why not produce some concrete proof? The respective sides always talk about how their side is truth, both can't be truth at the same time apparently. So get up, stop whining, prove whichever and win a Nobel prize, otherwise stop with the bickering.

This is pretty much what grading the student is saying, "This is what you must learn, and you will be tested to see if you listened". The student does not get an "F" because they believe in something else, they have simply failed a test on accepted societal knowledge.
I will agree both cannot be truth...perhaps neither are, but it has been shown and decided one has the Data to be taught in schools and the other does not. If the child does not study, understand, and gain the required knowledge on ANY subject...they will not pass a test.

The only difference I can see, is that English, Math, and History classes do not offend Religious thought (okay, maybe history a little).

myp · Apr 11, 2013

There IS concrete proof. You just fail to acknowledge it. The way you see things is as if you yourself are some superior being that gets to decide what is fact and what is not because you fail to share a methodology beyond it is opinion, yet you INSIST that 1+1=2 is universally true, while evolution is not. If I am wrong about your superiority complex (which I hope I am), then please share your methodology for why 1+1=2 is universally fact and evolution is not. Where is the line you draw between fact and opinion?

Also, you clearly don't understand what the free exercise or establishment clauses mean or the point of my hypothetical 1+1=3 religion within the context of this discussion (it is pretty much a thought experiment, not an actual proposal and certainly not a mockery...). But let's drop that...

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

myp said:
There IS concrete proof.

Then prove it.

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

tecoyah said:
This is pretty much what grading the student is saying, "This is what you must learn, and you will be tested to see if you listened". The student does not get an "F" because they believe in something else, they have simply failed a test on accepted societal knowledge.
I will agree both cannot be truth...perhaps neither are, but it has been shown and decided one has the Data to be taught in schools and the other does not. If the child does not study, understand, and gain the required knowledge on ANY subject...they will not pass a test.

The only difference I can see, is that English, Math, and History classes do not offend Religious thought (okay, maybe history a little).

So who does it hurt to let kids that don't accept it not be failed for it?

myp · Apr 11, 2013

Polydectes said:
So who does it hurt to let kids that don't accept it not be failed for it?

Everyone. It undermines the very point of testing in schools. It also potentially questions any facts that might be taught in school. Why can't you just separate fact from belief and leave it at that? Evolution is fact. The proof is there. You ignoring it does not mean the proof disappears.

Illegal to fail students if they believe in certain myths as opposed to facts?

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