Illegal to fail students if they believe in certain myths as opposed to facts?

myp · Apr 11, 2013

Polydectes said:
Creation had to do with what occurED before the evolutionary process even started. Evolution is currently occurring so they don't have anything to do with each other.

It depends on what type of creationism you are talking about. You are basically arguing from the view of an evolutionary creationist. I think you just wasted a lot of time. I explain below...

Polydectes said:
I want arguing about how offspring was genetically different from its parent. But the Norton that magic soup just decides to become life one day. the only flaw with evolution is the beginning. How many experiments have been successful in this primordial soup hypothesis? Surly science has attempted to replicate such an occurrence, wait, saw something on science channel, they have tried and failed to produce like out of fluids.

The primordial soup isn't a theory, it is a hypothesis. Or mythology. So without a foundation how do you build on this theory?

Your issue here isn't evolution really- it is the origin of life theories. Now you severely misrepresent those here too and are placing them on a equal basis as creationism which is crazy too, but it is a whole different debate and not one centered on evolution, just slightly tied to it. One thing you need to realize though is that we don't have to see or replicate something to know it is true. The other thing is that life itself is defined by humans which makes a difference here. Furthermore, the prevalent origin of life theories are more compatible with what else we know - i.e. the Big Bang, etc.

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

myp said:
It depends on what type of creationism you are talking about. You are basically arguing from the view of an evolutionary creationist. I think you just wasted a lot of time. I explain below...

Evolutionary creation is still creation. Frankly believing in existence is believing in creation, existence had to be created by something, so everybody is a creationist. Since we need to get into semantics.

You wasted a lot of time arguing with me, my position never changed. I said repeatedly that you didn't understand it. I don't know why you were even arguing with me, I said that i accept the theory of evolution 19 pages ago.

myp said:
Your issue here isn't evolution really- it is the origin of life theories. Now you severely misrepresent those here too and are placing them on a equal basis as creationism which is crazy too, but it is a whole different debate and not one centered on evolution, just slightly tied to it. One thing you need to realize though is that we don't have to see or replicate something to know it is true. The other thing is that life itself is defined by humans which makes a difference here. Furthermore, the prevalent origin of life theories are more compatible with what else we know - i.e. the Big Bang, etc.

How do you know it is true? Thus primordial soup that by some unknown process became life. How do you know what it isn't, if you don't know what it is that caused it? Isn't anything speculation?

tecoyah · Apr 11, 2013

Polydectes said:
A work environment is to do what you are told. A school environment is to be equipped with knowledge to understand things.

While true....education requires one to do as they are told until they understand the lesson being taught. if one fails to do so...they will fail.
It does not seem to me there should be a conflict unless it is fabricated. The scientific side is telling those of faith it does not much care that they disagree.
The faith side is doing the complaining, and doing so with absolutely nothing to back it up but more faith. No one in education cares what you believe...as long as you do not deny established reality.

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

tecoyah said:
While true....education requires one to do as they are told until they understand the lesson being taught. if one fails to do so...they will fail.
It does not seem to me there should be a conflict unless it is fabricated. The scientific side is telling those of faith it does not much care that they disagree.
The faith side is doing the complaining, and doing so with absolutely nothing to back it up but more faith. No one in education cares what you believe...as long as you do not deny established reality.

I am going to have to disagree with you on what education is. It is obtaining the ability to function in the modern world. I see creationists functioning well in our world as long as they are not attempting to force others to do so.

myp · Apr 11, 2013

Polydectes said:
Evolutionary creation is still creation. Frankly believing in existence is believing in creation, existence had to be created by something, so everybody is a creationist. Since we need to get into semantics.

You wasted a lot of time arguing with me, my position never changed. I said repeatedly that you didn't understand it. I don't know why you were even arguing with me, I said that i accept the theory of evolution 19 pages ago.

You wasted time because you didn't know what evolution was... Evolutionary creationists have basically backpedaled into a corner and accepted evolution- good for them, yet they still hold disproven views on other things like the origin of the universe. And no everyone is not a creationist. To have something does not mean it was designed. See Stephen Hawking's bit on this.

Polydectes said:
How do you know it is true? Thus primordial soup that by some unknown process became life. How do you know what it isn't, if you don't know what it is that caused it? Isn't anything speculation?

We can know a lot of things without seeing them firsthand. Statistically it is much more likely that things came to be out of such a soup than some intelligent whatever came to Earth of all places and populated it with humans as if he/she cared about some puny molecules in what is a very grand universe. The origin of life theories fit much better with our understanding of the formation of the Earth as well as the universe- the Big Bang and all. As well as what we know of element formation- many of the elements on Earth could only have formed in temperatures at the center of exploding stars- it is quite enlightening to think about actually. But again, this doesn't have too much to do with evolution and unlike you, I can admit when I don't know too much about something and I am not the best versed in origin of life theories. I have a background that has led to a good primer on evolution in my formal training (plus I like to read about it in my free time), but aside from very brief summaries, I have not gone into or read much about the origin of life theories- although realizing this now makes me want to when I get some free time.

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

myp said:
You wasted time because you didn't know what evolution was... Evolutionary creationists have basically backpedaled into a corner and accepted evolution- good for them, yet they still hold disproven views on other things like the origin of the universe. And no everyone is not a creationist. To have something does not mean it was designed. See Stephen Hawking's bit on this.

for out to be created doesn't mean it was designed. Now you know the origin of the universe? That seems to change and very depending on which astrophysicist you ask

myp said:
We can know a lot of things without seeing them firsthand. Statistically it is much more likely that things came to be out of such a soup than some intelligent whatever came to Earth of all places and populated it with humans as if he/she cared about some puny molecules in what is a very grand universe. The origin of life theories fit much better with our understanding of the formation of the Earth as well as the universe- the Big Bang and all. As well as what we know of element formation- many of the elements on Earth could only have formed in temperatures at the center of exploding stars- it is quite enlightening to think about actually. But again, this doesn't have too much to do with evolution and unlike you, I can admit when I don't know too much about something and I am not the best versed in origin of life theories. I have a background that has led to a good primer on evolution in my formal training (plus I like to read about it in my free time), but aside from very brief summaries, I have not gone into or read much about the origin of life theories- although realizing this now makes me want to when I get some free time.

That is not really effective by creation. Explain what occurred before the big bang.

myp · Apr 11, 2013

Polydectes said:
for out to be created doesn't mean it was designed. Now you know the origin of the universe? That seems to change and very depending on which astrophysicist you ask

The Big Bang is virtually universally accepted at this point... But the point is you could have something come from nothing. I suggest Lawrence Krauss's work on this for more.

Polydectes said:
That is not really effective by creation. Explain what occurred before the big bang.

It is quite possible that time began with the Big Bang.

Polydectes · Apr 11, 2013

myp said:
The Big Bang is virtually universally accepted at this point... But the point is you could have something come from nothing. I suggest Lawrence Krauss's work on this for more.

It is quite possible that time began with the Big Bang.

So the big bang started time? What caused the big bang?

David · Apr 11, 2013

Polydectes said:
So the big bang started time? What caused the big bang?

Okay, there was no bang. The universe sprung forth fully formed out of nothing and started expanding, cooling and slowly decaying into the rotten, unstable mess it is now. There was no 'before'.

Polydectes · Apr 12, 2013

David said:
Okay, there was no bang. The universe sprung forth fully formed out of nothing and started expanding, cooling and slowly decaying into the rotten, unstable mess it is now. There was no 'before'.

Isn't that the big bang?

All I am saying is that the mark Twain quote is reality, I don't think the entirety of human knowledge even scratches the surface of what there is in th universe.

Frankly as far as the life of the universe goes I would think this is the best time to live in it.

myp · Apr 12, 2013

Polydectes said:
So the big bang started time? What caused the big bang?

There are various possibilities, but you need to understand that nothing had to come before the big bang if the big bang was when time started. And this is quite possible since time and space are the same thing. But what does this whole thing have to do with the topic at hand? If you are trying to show that there are things we don't have answers to, then yes, you are right and no one was disputing that. But that does not mean evolution isn't fact...

Polydectes · Apr 12, 2013

myp said:
There are various possibilities, but you need to understand that nothing had to come before the big bang if the big bang was when time started. And this is quite possible since time and space are the same thing. But what does this whole thing have to do with the topic at hand? If you are trying to show that there are things we don't have answers to, then yes, you are right and no one was disputing that. But that does not mean evolution isn't fact...

If the big bang wasn't when time started then something happened before. I don't know you went off on the tangent.

You have been off topic since you mentioned evolution.

tecoyah · Apr 12, 2013

Okay then....back on topic:

Illegal to fail students if they believe in certain myths as opposed to facts?

It should not be illegal to fail a child for not understanding the material they are expected to lean.

It does not matter if we are dealing with a Catholic school expecting the kid to know the bible, or a Pubic school expecting them to know algebra.

If they get an F.....they likely did not get it.

To pass any law hampering the teacher is not productive for anyone involved.

myp · Apr 12, 2013

Polydectes said:
If the big bang wasn't when time started then something happened before. I don't know you went off on the tangent.

You have been off topic since you mentioned evolution.

Evolution is obviously a central point to this thread. You seem to agree it is fact now anyway. Out of curiosity what is your opinion of young earth creationism?

Polydectes · Apr 12, 2013

myp said:
Evolution is obviously a central point to this thread. You seem to agree it is fact now anyway. Out of curiosity what is your opinion of young earth creationism?

Evolution and creation have little to do with this tread, I thought it was about law and curriculum.

As far as creation, not sure what you mean. I Already said everybody is a creationist just a difference on what created everything.

As far as the people who claim the Bible is exact on what occurred, I don't know how it could be, it doesn't explain how God created the earth or what it was created out of. The only thing that seems to be completely wrong is the order in which things were created. When us kind of up for grabs because the Bible isn't really clear on that.

I don't accept evolution as fact, I accept it as a possibility, that never changed.

But as far as the Bible fundamentalists I don't think Genesis should be taken literally. Those that do, more power to them, I choose not to.

Polydectes · Apr 12, 2013

tecoyah said:
Okay then....back on topic:

It should not be illegal to fail a child for not understanding the material they are expected to lean.

It does not matter if we are dealing with a Catholic school expecting the kid to know the bible, or a Pubic school expecting them to know algebra.

If they get an F.....they likely did not get it.

To pass any law hampering the teacher is not productive for anyone involved.

Is it because they don't understand it or their religion doesn't allow them to forsake it for a test?

tecoyah · Apr 13, 2013

Polydectes said:
Is it because they don't understand it or their religion doesn't allow them to forsake it for a test?

The reason does not matter...it does not change the fact they failed, that was my point. If the child expected to learn the bible(s) refuses to because they do not "Believe" the information....they will fail.

Polydectes · Apr 13, 2013

tecoyah said:
The reason does not matter...it does not change the fact they failed, that was my point. If the child expected to learn the bible(s) refuses to because they do not "Believe" the information....they will fail.

It isn't the schools place to say what is to be believed or not.

tecoyah · Apr 13, 2013

Polydectes said:
It isn't the schools place to say what is to be believed or not.

No...as stated quite clearly, it is not.

It IS however, the schools "place" to instill what knowledge into the children it is charged with educating.

Polydectes · Apr 13, 2013

tecoyah said:
No...as stated quite clearly, it is not.

It IS however, the schools "place" to instill what knowledge into the children it is charged with educating.

If those two conflict then it is education that must yield, being that there is a right to religious freedom but however not a right to education. But it seems that religion will yells to education if it gives this meager concession. I don't understand why it is asking so much. The fundamentalists are already being written off as you said. nobody but a fundamentalists child would write something like that in. if they are written off already why are you so concerned with making sure that they don't get a diploma? If it is just that they are marked wrong for questions they miss on a test that isn't a big issue, thus law says it would be illegal to fail them for it. As I said before it seems vindictive to fail a kid because he doesn't want to give up his beliefs.

Illegal to fail students if they believe in certain myths as opposed to facts?

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